Posted: 03 February 2005 at 8:00am | IP Logged

Ok Dragon lairs... I play a T8 and T9.... the T8 allows one dragon to be engaged if a second lair is in play while I can also fully heal a dragon because the T9 allows it if a second lair is in play... If I play a T8(a) and T8(b)   do I get  to engage two dragons since (a) condition is met by (b)   and (b) condition is met by (a)...

Posted: 04 February 2005 at 2:16pm | IP Logged

Dragon terrain are only considered Dragon Empire cards if they say "Space Dragon" or have a Dragon Empire card background (see the clarification in Galactic Fire #2). If the title says only "dragon" it is not considered a minor empire card. Also, if the card text says "dragon" it can affect any 'D' dragon card, including Orgons.

Frankly, given the demise of Companion Games, this is the only way to play things to give an Orgon deck a fighting chance.

Also, by the Universe Edition v2.0 rulebook (and I've checked this against the print copies I have) minor empire cards no longer have to be supported by major empire cards of the same type, but by non-minor empire cards of the same type (with generic ships not counting for this purpose). So even if Dragon terrain were considered minor empire cards they could be supported by plain terrain. This is, however, important when stocking Vektrean Asteroid bases, which can be supported with plain terrain and/or bases.

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Posted: 05 February 2005 at 11:01am | IP Logged

MogwaiSC wrote: Please read through some of the forums here.  Several months ago there was an extended discussion of what constituted "Empire Specific" for a terrain card.  Geko's ruling was that if the name of the empire appears in BOTH title areas of the card, both above and below the picture, which is the case for all Dragon Terrain, then those cards are "Empire Specific".

The problem is, the name of the empire is "Space Dragon," occassionally referenced as "Dragon Empire," not "Dragon." Which would mean that "Dragon Lair" is not a "Space Dragon" empire specific card.

MogwaiSC wrote: The border around the picture, or the card color, are considered irrelevant for determining if a card is or is not empire specific.

OK, that you're right about. Even the rulebook states that card texture only counts for ships, bases, dragons, psys, and installations. Which makes sense, otherwise there are a lot of cards that just wouldn't play right in a lot of circumstances.

MogwaiSC wrote: Also, I find no such thing in the 2.0 rulebook allowing minor empire cards to be unsupported.

I did not say that they did not need to be supported, I said that they did not need to be supported by main empire specific cards. A Vektrean Asteroid Base can be supported by 4 Planetary Shields. And a Dragon Lair, even if it were considered to be empire specific (which I disagree with) could be supported by 4 Apollo Bodies (or any other non-minor empire specific terrain). That is clearly what the rules you quoted state:

Quote: USING MINOR EMPIRE CARDS:  A player may use a maximum of one minor empire card in their deck for every 4 cards of the same type that are not a minor empire card.

It says nothing about the supporting cards needing to be major empire cards of the same type, only that they cannot be minor empire cards.

This wording does lead to some slight confusion when using a minor empire as the main deck empire. Really it needs a 4th exception:
- If using a minor empire as the main deck empire, cards of the main empire count as major empire cards for purposes of this rule.

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Posted: 06 February 2005 at 6:41pm | IP Logged

MogwaiSC wrote: I don't think it goes against the letter of the rules at all.  Simply because it isn't specified one way or the other doesn't mean that it's violating the "spririt" of the rules at all.

Except the rule clearly states non-minor empire card, not major empire card. That ruling would go against the letter of the rules as written. Just because it agrees with the way you've been playing doesn't mean it agrees with the rulebook as written.

MogwaiSC wrote: Logically however, it doesn't make sense that it can be any card of that ttype.

I didn't say "any card of the type." I've said, over and over, any non-minor empire card of the type.

MogwaiSC wrote: For example, I could build a deck that includes 40 Scorpead ships.  By the rules, I can add 10 ships of a minor empire.  So then I have 10 more ships in my deck, allowing me two more minor empire ships according to the 4:1 rule.  Then I go and add 2 Vektrean ships.  This allows me to add one more ship of a minor empire, etc.  See where it goes?

The rule explicetly states that minor empire cards are supported by cards that are of the same type and not a minor minor empire.

Minor empire ships can't support more minor empire ships.  Adding the 10 minor empire ships to the deck doesn't allow you to support more minor empire ships. If you have 40 Scorpead ships in the deck you are limited to 10 minor empire ships.

MogwaiSC wrote: Perhaps ships isn't as good an example.  Let's try bases.  Let's say I build a deck with 80 bases in it.  This allows me 20 minor empire bases.  So I take 20 Vektrean bases, so now I have 100 bases in my deck and I get to take 4 more bases of a minor empire, etc.  In other words, if you allow cards of any type to be used to satisfy the 4:1 rule, it's not really a 4:1 rule.  This then in fact violates the letter of the rule.

The rule says minor empire cards are supported by non-minor empire cards. I said that in my previous replies. I'm stressing it again here.

Vektrean Bases, being minor empire cards, cannot support more minor empire cards because, get this, they don't qualify as being not a minor empire card.

If you have 80 non-minor empire bases you're limited to a maximum of 20 minor empire bases, be they Vektrean Asteroid Bases or some other minor empire base (do any other minor empires have bases?).

MogwaiSC wrote: Given this simple mathematical fact, I don't see how it is you can claim that by requiring major empire cards to fulfill the 4:1 rule that it violates the letter or the spirit of the rule.

Because the rule, as written, doesn't say major empire cards, it says non-minor empire cards. Requiring major empire cards would be a against the letter of the rule.

As for the spirit of the rules, until Universe 2.0 there were NO RESTRICTIONS against non-ship minor empire cards. The intention has always seemed to be to allow for decent use of minor empire cards of all types by all empires. If you restrict support cards to major empire cards there are many empires that won't be able use minor empire cards of certain types simply because they didn't get enough support cards printed.

And as I've said, the rules as written do leave a little something to be desired. If you're using a minor empire as your main deck empire the rules don't work (since your main empire, a minor empire, can't be used to support other minor empire cards).

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, in the Universe v2.0 rules Psy empires are suddenly not able to stock minor empire ships though they were allowed to in the Universe v1 rulebook ('P' Psy cards used to be able to support 'S' Ship cards or 'D' Dragon, just like 'D' Dragon cards can).

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Posted: 07 February 2005 at 9:03am | IP Logged

And as I said, if Geko ruled that way he ruled against the letter of the rule, if not the spirit. As part of the IRC and last vestages of Companion it may be his perogative to change the rules, but if he does make a ruling that changes the rules at least admit that's what's being done, OK?

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Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:40pm | IP Logged

Scroll up, read the paragraph that starts out "As for the spirit of the rules..."

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Posted: 08 February 2005 at 8:57am | IP Logged

I leave you two alone for one day and this is what happens? :)

While I appreciate you looking to me as an authority on the subject, i do sometimes get things wrong (see discussion about the Corporate homeworld where I mistakenly state it is not empire specific http://www.bullington.us/galacticempires/forums/forum_posts. asp?TID=16&PN=2)

Regardless of what I might have said in the past here goes...

GF#2 pg. 6, "In addition to the deck's main empire, minor empire cards may be used. They must be supported by 4 non-minor empire cards of the same type (Exceptions: Generic ships do not support minor empire cards and dragon and ship cards are interchangeable for support purposes). [note: this I don't agree with, and have "ruled" against elsewhere on the forums, but it is in the rules]  When the deck's main empire is a minor empire, those cards do not require support, and can in fact support other minor empire cards.

GF#2 pg. 8, Space Dragon cards are cards with the phrase "Space Dragon" in the title. Remember, dragon is a card type, not an empire.

so it seems Dragon Lairs are NOT empire specific. Even if they were, they can easily be supported in the 1:4 ratio with other terrain. Why would you stock them in your deck if you are not playing Dragon as your main empire anyway? For the Heavy weapon output? There is better terrain that can do that.

Posted: 08 February 2005 at 9:10am | IP Logged

As to minor empire ships supporting OTHER minor empire ships...

No, this is not legal. If you have 20 empire ships, you are allowed to have 5 minor empire ships total. These DO NOT then allow you to have an additional minor ship.

Even when using a minor empire as your main empire, you ARE allowed to have other minor empires in your deck.

Posted: 08 February 2005 at 1:24pm | IP Logged

Geko wrote: so it seems Dragon Lairs are NOT empire specific. Even if they were, they can easily be supported in the 1:4 ratio with other terrain. Why would you stock them in your deck if you are not playing Dragon as your main empire anyway? For the Heavy weapon output? There is better terrain that can do that.

For the 'D' dragon Orgons, which can be affected by pretty much anything that affects "dragon" cards. Plus Orgons need minimal Supply to engage (none for D1-D5 cards, 1-2 Supply for the D5-D7), so the Dragon terrain provide more than enough supply and Heavy Weapons for them.

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Posted: 08 February 2005 at 2:57pm | IP Logged

MogwaiSC wrote: It still doesn't make sense to me that any S card, except generics, can support minor empire ships. Without such a restriction, there's no limit to how many minor empire ships can be put in a deck, if it's built right. You could build a deck with more minor empire ships than major empire ships in it.

By the rule, only non-generic and non-minor empire 'S' ships may be used to support other 'S' ship cards. In the case of 'S' ship cards this means only the main deck empire 'S' ships may be used to support minor empire ships (excepting the equivenancy with 'D' Dragons.

In the case of other card types (i.e. 'B' Bases) any non-minor empire 'B' Base may be used to support minor empire bases. This means any generic or main deck empire 'B' base qualifies as being non-minor empire.

As Geko said, minor empire cards can't be used to support more cards. If you add 4 Vektrean Asteroid Bases they can't support more VAB's because they don't qualify as being non-minor empire cards (unless, of course, your playing Vektrean as the main deck empire).

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Posted: 08 February 2005 at 5:53pm | IP Logged

True, you could probably do that. Of course, you could always build a "Corporate" deck with only 1 Corporate ship in it and 27 Generic ships. Is that any less ridiculous? And look at the contents of the "Nobles" starter deck that Companion actually released - only one 'C' Noble in the entire deck.

Ultimately what makes it a "Corporate" deck is your use of "Corporate" cards and the tactics which flow from using those cards.

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Posted: 09 February 2005 at 6:05am | IP Logged

If you are using categories other than ships to support the minor empire cards (T/B for instance) than yes it is possible to build a deck where minor empire cards can outnumber the main empire ship cards in your deck. But why would you do that? There are very few empires that you wouldn't want to use their empire ships (as many as you can find).