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RobPro
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Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 835
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:14pm | IP Logged
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I've posted my decklist. Honestly, your deck isn't competitive if it doesn't have the ability to draw cards. This is true in EVERY card game, not just GE.
My deck has the potential to get lucky and draw 50+ cards in one turn, sure. This has never happened in a multiplayer game, because there are plenty of cards that prevent/steal draws, and the people in my playgroups know how to use them.
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werewolflht65
Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 780
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:34pm | IP Logged
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Rob is correct in that assessment. Even in Magic, being able to draw more cards then your opponent always gives you an edge.
Also, now that I have surpassed both George and Aramax as Local South Jersey Card Lord, I've come to the conclusion that yes, the game is broken on some very fundamental levels, and yes, a R-List is one way to fix it. I also agree with Geko, and that is to simply pound your card drawing friends into pulp, make them the table target EVERY game until they either A) Quit the game, B)Quit GE AND the Game, or C) Hopefully wake the hell up and realize that because they play the way they do, they will always be singled out, and reconfigure their decks to try something new.
Me personally, I prefer C, but some guys are just too knotheaded...
As a group decision, we have removed all cards from our R-List, EXCEPT the Reactionary World. That card is just too broken..
Bring on the MegaDraw Madness. I have my Q-Occurrences ready...
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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RobPro
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
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Haha. I wish I could come play with you guys sometime, sounds like fun.
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Tarquon
Exalted
Joined: 02 January 2007
Posts: 197
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 7:00pm | IP Logged
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Sure pounding into pulp always works. Then after you have him disabled
you can start your own megadraw madness...
That's just the way it works - ask any master-level player. As long as
megadraw is THE winning strategy anyone who doesn't draw up to the table
limit is doomed! And I have found that as the players' collections of cards
improve the table limit goes ever higher.
Personally I would love to try decks that don't focus on either my or my
opponent's madness, but that's just not in the cards ;) until that strategy is
made less possible/appealing.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 8:52pm | IP Logged
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In any GE game with 3+ players, if you try and draw 800 cards in one turn, you're gonna make enemies. I run a lot of ways to get an extra card draw at the end of the turn, and I like to hit a card that lets me draw more on my turn usually 1 every 4-7 non-draw cards.
If you're not greedy, people will let you get away with a lot. Like drawing 6-7 off some other card with your Discard Equivalency, then dropping your Accelerated Timeline/Temporal Engineer. Yeah, you'll be a target after, but you got 6-7 cards off an Equivalency while someone held onto that Luck Demon, Twist of Fate, Vacuum Effect, etc.
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Tarquon
Exalted
Joined: 02 January 2007
Posts: 197
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 9:56pm | IP Logged
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I just want to stop the madness and bring back the golden age when
there were numerous viable master-level strategies. For those of us lucky
enough to remember the game before it devolved into the madness, we
know how rich and fun GE can be. At one time, and maybe still, GE had
more different cards than any other CCG. That implies that GE could have
the richest gameplay. And maybe it does at the beginner level, but I don't
see what interest new players would have in GE as it seems to be, at the
highest levels, just another CCG where the one who draws the most,
using these same core <n> cards, wins.
Also, I have never seen the 'pound your friend until he ...' philosophy
work. If he's committed to the strategy he'll respond by cranking up his
defense. And if you keep pounding your friend into the ground simply
because he has chosen the best strategy within the current game
framework you're more than likely going to cross that line where it
becomes personal.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 8:24am | IP Logged
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As a group decision, we have removed all cards from our R-List, EXCEPT the Reactionary World. That card is just too broken..
yAy! And while I don't necessarily agree that Reactionary World should be on that list, I'm glad you removed the others.
Another really broken card is the Marine Depot. I'll save the entire list of the cards that I think should be on the list for another thread.
Then after you have him disabled
you can start your own megadraw madness...
That's just the way it works - ask any master-level player.
That is not true. Check out Harold Henning's deck in GF. He won more C10 War Veterans than anybody else. (yes, including me, but only because I couldn't enter as many tournaments, sometimes I had to judge them too) His decks weren't designed as megadraw decks.
He does have some cards that would allow him to draw, but it is all how you play them, and wether you draw attention to the fact that you could draw up to 50 cards in one turn.
If you're not greedy, people will let you get away with a lot.
Yes, I couldn't agree more.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 8:27am | IP Logged
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again, the megadraw madness should never take place.
In a duel, a 200+ card deck should not be able to compete with a slim 100 card deck, even with a megadraw aspect.
In a multi-player game, everyone at the table should see the 200+ card deck and immediately key on the fact that that deck if left alone will outdraw them.
The game is not actually broken. The players may be.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 9:42am | IP Logged
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It's broken in the sense that you couldn't make a competitive tournament deck without Promo cards. The regular sets should have at least featured terrain that took have damage from heavies or had shields and card type immunities.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 10:28am | IP Logged
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And if the company hadn't closed its doors, they would have.
But, the cost to buy one of the promo sets is fairly comparable to the cost of a booster set of an actually release.
See my rant about that in the back of GF#2 (i believe).
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RobPro
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 1:25pm | IP Logged
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My point is more about the accessibility of the cards... I think it's cool they printed them, but depending on your location it would of been hard to get them. It's near impossible now for me to get adequate numbers of most.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 2:03pm | IP Logged
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Well, it is pretty hard to get any cards except maybe TG, Primary, and Beta.
The game has been out of print for ten years.
But, yet, still has a following. How many card games can say that?
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werewolflht65
Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 780
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| Posted: 17 October 2007 at 9:41pm | IP Logged
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Any one want TG Booster Boxes??? I have ALOT....
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Tarquon
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Joined: 02 January 2007
Posts: 197
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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Quote:
| The game is not actually broken. The players may be. |
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While some players may have 'issues' I wouldn't call them broken on the
whole. The average player seeks to play optimally within the game
framework with the cards available. Optimal play for most players
includes winning as a goal. The problem is that when one strategy clearly
is superior everyone will gravitate toward it. And when everyone plays a
similar strategy the game is not so much fun regardless of how much fun
your deck may be. (maybe this is just my 'issue')
Quote:
| That is not true. Check out Harold Henning's deck... |
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That deck was from the golden days before megadraw was common.
Megadraws were out in force at the final few retreats. The entity rampage
just reinforced the strategy.
And I have seen megadraw decks much smaller than 200 cards.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 11:52am | IP Logged
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but the cards used in a megadraw deck were available at the time of Harold's deck.
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 12:43pm | IP Logged
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The megadraw strategy was not prevalent in those days even though, yes, anyone could have built one given enough power cards. I don't know why. Perhaps people hadn't perfected it yet? (the retreats allowed many strategies to openly compete and evolve) Perhaps card availability was why it was so common in the end? (everyone had a suitcase) I see it as a contagious strategy that excalates in consecutive games until it takes over the whole deck's theme. Most people who lose to a megadraw try to make their own deck madder. And if most people at the table are gunning for the draws, you'ld be lost if you didn't as well. The entity rampage reinforced this thinking.
My problem with it is that it is a strategy requiring little/no creativity that uses a very small subset of GE cards to produce dull, short games (win or not). Any newbie can build this deck.
Harold chose not to play that way, YAY!, but I saw him lose to megadraw decks. Anyone could play a low-key defensive deck like Harold's, but most players don't have the skill to pull it off. Megadraw is easier.
Eh, back in the day we didn't HAVE cards stronger than 6!
We considered ourselves lucky if we drew more than 2 cards/turn!
Kids these days think they're ENTITLED to a promoted cybermage!
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 1:20pm | IP Logged
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And if most people at the table are gunning for the draws, you'ld be lost if you didn't as well.
that is not true. You could use the draw prevention strategy.
Megadraw is easier. But if you look back, Harold's record speaks for itself. He has still won more tournaments than anybody else.
What makes a shorter game is Spy Central and a Cat Rep in your reserve. Yes, they are both 9s, but they can be pulled off with a good deck.
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Tarquon
Exalted
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Posts: 197
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 2:24pm | IP Logged
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If enough other players want to draw you won't stop them for very long. And if you try, you're being sucked into the madness as well, only in a negative way (by loading your deck with anti-megadraw cards).
Harold's record is impressive, but if you look back you will see the rising prevalence for megadraw decks as the game ended. Perhaps we have different perspectives.
Quote:
| ...Spy Central and a Cat Rep in your reserve. |
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That combo certainly makes a short game (substitute katyrn for spy central). I favor banning the spy planets. I happen to like longer games. The more different stuff that happens the more fun I have.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 3:17pm | IP Logged
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i concur in regards to the spy planets. it takes the fun out of the game. You are suppose to have that unknown, does he have anything to stop this?
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werewolflht65
Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 780
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 5:22pm | IP Logged
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I once thought as you all do now, because I was once like you, a Have Not.
But since I acquired Cards UnLtd's stock, I am no longer in that category. AND, I have plenty of extra cards to help those of you who find yourself at the losing end of MegaDraw Madness to easily tip the scales back toward neutral.
But alas, no one apparently wants anything save for Aramax and Robpro, who have both placed orders recently in their attempts at balancing the scales within their perspective groups.
Anyone else?
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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RobPro
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
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Honestly, the Luck/Occurence/Monster cards in the regular sets are more than enough to stop mega-draw.
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Tarquon
Exalted
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Posts: 197
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
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As I said earlier, if enough people want to have unrestricted drawing then
the best you can hope for is to slow them down. They may actually find
your presense on the far side annoying and decide to remove your HQ from
the star charts. And wouldn't you prefer to put more interresting, obscure
cards in your deck instead of the anti-draws?
The best games I recall were those with players with all moderately sized
suitcases. The more cards, the less creativity - or so I have observed.
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werewolflht65
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Location: United States
Posts: 780
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 11:06pm | IP Logged
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BTW, Elmers dries good and tight on paper... A safe bet if you still want to glue his cards together.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Aramax
Exalted
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Location: United States
Posts: 390
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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Tarquon wrote:
As I said earlier, if enough people want to have unrestricted drawing then
the best you can hope for is to slow them down. They may actually find
your presense on the far side annoying and decide to remove your HQ from
the star charts. And wouldn't you prefer to put more interresting, obscure
cards in your deck instead of the anti-draws?
The best games I recall were those with players with all moderately sized
suitcases. The more cards, the less creativity - or so I have observed. |
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embrace the restricted list,it good
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werewolflht65
Exalted
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Posts: 780
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| Posted: 23 October 2007 at 11:59am | IP Logged
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No, it's not. Balancing the playing field, building up friends who are have nots, and restricting the Reactionary World has had a very positive effect on the game for us.
Harry and George go for each other like one stole the others wallet, while Harley and Ascher go for each other like they were playing a round of Tooth & Nail Magic.
Which leaves me alone to plot all of their downfalls... MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Galactic Empires : Deck Construction and Strategy
Topic: Glue: My Final Alternative
