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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 10:00am | IP Logged
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Well, I think *we* are all in agreement on how this would work.
How about you, Aramax?
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged
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-Well dress me in a skirt and call me Shirley, i didn't know you could play more than one reaction card to a single event.
I think i need more reaction cards in my decks.....Lobo
Well, this could explain why you lose so much. :P
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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And, no, it doesn't have anything to do with wearing a skirt while you are playing!
If anything, that would actually help you win.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 2:22pm | IP Logged
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Tarquon wrote:
Quote:
| Simply put, you cannot IR an Unlucky Targeting to gain UTs benefit Twice |
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I agree. Most of this discussion is an explanation of the reaction sequence that produces this result.
Quote:
Ok, The IR is played first. Work out the resolution.
1st) IR
2nd) UT |
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I disagree. The IR must be played to a reaction card so it must be played after the UT (and so resolve before the UT). The sequence doesn't start to resolve until both of these cards have been played.
As a judge, shouldn't you be passive until called upon for a ruling? Or is this a Judge Dredd position you're taking on?
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Ok, so you play the UT first, and then the IR. Do the resolution chain.
It isn't rocket science Tarquon, I don't know why you are having such a hard time getting it.
Ok, UT goes off halves the damage and is DISCARDED. It isn't there to be Instant Reacted! Once the UT has done its job, it goes away. Instant React can't make it do it again, by the rules for Reaction Cards.
GEKO! Please man, straighten him out before I have a profanity episode.
I'm done with this stupid argument. If people don't want to read the cards, I don't need the stress.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:17pm | IP Logged
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Ok so let me get this straight....
Unlucky + instant reaction doesn't work, BUT if I unlucky targeting then someone else reacts with ANYTHING I could then instant react my unlucky targeting and double it?
Seems kinda weird to me....
Edited by Drakmoore on 21 November 2007 at 3:18pm
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
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Wolfie, relax. Tarquon *is* actually agreeing with you that the UT does not get to function twice.
The sequence is what he is saying is happening differently.
Here is what is happening:
[Step 1] Player A fires at Player B.
[Step 2] Player B plays the UT.
*
[Step 3] Player B then plays the IR onto the UT (it is technically in play, just hasn't been resolved yet)
The IR functions, and is placed back in Player Bs hand.
[Step 4] Player B then react with the UT.
The UT resolves (during step 4) and is discarded. By the time the reaction sequence gets back to step 2 (with or without Player A reacting) the UT is no longer in play, so it cannot function.
* another option is if Player A responds to the UT by crinkling or skipping.
Yes, the Time Skip would be in play without being resolved yet. And, if a IR would be used on the UT, the UT would actually function and be discarded before the TS took place.
Are we having fun yet? :)
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
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Drak - See post above. The UT can never get doubled.
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
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AH, so instant reaction is card insurance....
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:22pm | IP Logged
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so to speak.
It is a way to make sure your reaction card takes place. Keep in mind that you can only do it on the same reaction card once per turn. And, if the reaction card is of higher strength the IR does get discarded.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
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Oh, and I totally forgot Step 5, where Player A weeps.
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 3:57pm | IP Logged
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yeah, let's just step outside and finish this agreement...
In effect, the IR allows the card it's played to to resolve sooner in the reaction sequence. It mucks with the game mechanics and can, as we now violently agree, cause much confusion.
try this...
A: in reaction to weapons fire, crinkle B's ship
B: in reaction negates crinkle with reactionary world
A: IR the crinkle (getting rid of ship and disarming the RW)
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 21 November 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
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Yes, yes, YES! Finally!
What I was discussing wasn't what everyone else was, apparently.
The issue at hand was an attempt to get UT to function twice by playing IR to it.
No insurance issues, though that IS allowed, because Player A reacted to the UT, which now lets B react with the IR.
HURRAY!!!
Argument solved. Lobo, did your cards come today?
How about you Eagle?
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 5:56am | IP Logged
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OK The title of the card is Instant Reaction, meaning you a little faster on the draw. React cards are resolved satck down fasion. What the IR does is puts The react card played back on the top of the stack. Player A fires, player B reacts with UT, Player A Time skips, Player B IR's the UT putting it back on the top of the stack and since the Time skip has no target it fizzles, if no other reacts are played such as time skipping the IR.
But yes the cards are not discarded until they function so they are in play and can be IR'd.
I have both IR's in front of me now. They are in fact completely different cards. The wording has'nt been corrected but has made a new card completely and is where this argument stems from. Also , althoguh we all discard cards after they are resolved "after use" are'nt they technically only removed during the discard phase?
Another question? this card can only be used per turn correct. By using the above technique it is obvious. but the wording of the new card even states" may be played once each phase" and "any reaction card may only be played once each turn".
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 6:55am | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
OK The title of the card is Instant Reaction, meaning you a little faster on the draw. React cards are resolved satck down fasion. What the IR does is puts The react card played back on the top of the stack. Player A fires, player B reacts with UT, Player A Time skips, Player B IR's the UT putting it back on the top of the stack and since the Time skip has no target it fizzles, if no other reacts are played such as time skipping the IR.
But yes the cards are not discarded until they function so they are in play and can be IR'd.
I have both IR's in front of me now. They are in fact completely different cards. The wording has'nt been corrected but has made a new card completely and is where this argument stems from. Also , althoguh we all discard cards after they are resolved "after use" are'nt they technically only removed during the discard phase?
Another question? this card can only be used per turn correct. By using the above technique it is obvious. but the wording of the new card even states" may be played once each phase" and "any reaction card may only be played once each turn". |
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Again, you are applying a MtG rule to GE, where it doesn't belong. There are no "Stacks" in GE, that is a 9th edition MtG rule. And only because the idiot 10 yr olds in Type Two Tourneys could understand LiFo...
Player A fires. Player B reacts with a UT. Unless Player A reacts to the UT, Player B can do NOTHING FURTHER! He cannot instant react his UT for double the effect. He cannot do ANYTHING! (Game related; he can still breathe, fart, or take a drink)
Now, if Player A reacted to the UT, THEN Player B could react again. So, if Player A Time Skipped the UT, Player B could IR it to negate the Time Skip. Personally, I'd prefer it if Player B simply played a Time Keeper in reaction to negate the Time Skip. It's much simpler that way.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 7:57am | IP Logged
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Uh yeah. You are most incorrect, I am not applying anything from MtG since I never once played. Ok so stack is the incorrect wording, what is meant is last card played takes effect first. What is meant by when we refer to as stack is last card played, the IR makes the reaction card as if it were last card played. And what i put in my last post you are only saying the same thing.... Why would anyone even want to play a IR on the UT straight.. what a waste.
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 9:27am | IP Logged
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Quote:
Player A fires. Player B reacts with a UT. Unless Player A reacts to
the UT, Player B can do NOTHING FURTHER! |
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I hate to almost agree with you again, but it actually can go like this:
- Player A fires.
- Player B reacts with a UT.
- Player B also reacts with card x
- Player B also reacts with card y
- Player B also reacts with card z
and so on.
player A could also have some cards in this sequence at any point after
player B first reacts
As we are now all so painfully aware, the above reaction sequence
resolves in this order: z, y, x, UT, weapons fire
If card y happened to be an IR played to the UT then the reaction
sequence would resolve in this order: z, y, UT, x, weapons fire
And yes, Eagle, it does seem like a waste to play the IR to the UT in this
scenario. I think we agree that no matter what you do with an IR the UT
won't go off twice. At this point we're discussing the finer mechanics of
reaction sequence resolution.
Is there a better way to spend TDay? ;)
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 9:33am | IP Logged
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Yeah, eating...
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:20pm | IP Logged
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it's 4:00, so been there done that, now for the leftovers.. Playing this game would be finer than discusiing it. oh the agony.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:27pm | IP Logged
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Well, with any luck, I may find myself trucking through the midwest at some point.
I'll be sure to pick up a decent used laptop so I can keep up with the board.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 8:56am | IP Logged
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A: in reaction to weapons fire, crinkle B's ship
B: in reaction negates crinkle with reactionary world
A: IR the crinkle (getting rid of ship and disarming the RW)
Wow, what an excellent use of IR, Tarquon.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 9:08am | IP Logged
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Also , although we all discard cards after they are resolved "after use" aren't they technically only removed during the discard phase?
No, they are discarded after they are resolved. Some of the cards that say "Discard After Use" are technically still in play several turns later.
this card can only be used per turn correct.
No, the IR can be used on several reaction cards (as long as the IR comes back to your hand), each phase of your opponent's turn.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:24am | IP Logged
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Yes, but ONLY the IR can be used multiple times, which is the only Reaction Card that can violate the standing rule of a reaction card being used only once per complete turn. And only if it goes back to your hand.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
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Wait, but maybe you can only play it once per turn, if one reaction card can't be used more then once per turn that is.
-Played to a reaction card.
-May only be played once each phase. (doesn't say your allowed to play it more then that, it might just specify for use by multiple players)
-The
reaction card may use its functions in reaction mode, moving to any
location. Any reaction card may only be used in reaction once each
complete turn.
-Return this card to the hand if the reaction card is of
equal or lesser strength. Otherwise, discard this card after use.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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Actually, the rule is on the Ir card itself. "- played to a reaction card. - May only be played once each phase -The reaction card may use its functions in reaction mode, moving to any location. Any reaction card may only be used in reaction once each turn. - Return this card to the hand if the reaction card is of equal or lesser strength. Otherwise discad this card after use" So it is not violating a standing rule, but the rule on the card itself. This is from the Newest version of the card.
OK This is the part of the rule on both cards which is befuddling.. In All of our examples we have used the IR to move a reaction card to the front of the pecking order, hence to be resolved first. But on both versions of the card, it clearly states "to any location". In our examples we were'nt moving locations but merely moving it to the top; of the pecking order. This was the reason we played it to cards already in play earlier phases/turns. One such example.
Player A has a R/C4 marine on corporate homeworld.
Player B during his turn plays a C10 Spiritual Leader to his Angel's Treasure.
Player A reacts with IR onto his marine playing him to Angels treasure to kill the C10, also discarding the marine of course.
Before you argue the marine needs Transpo, the IR card allows him to go to any location.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:57pm | IP Logged
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[QUOTE=Drakmoore]Wait, but maybe you can only play it once per turn, if one reaction card can't be used more then once per turn that is.
-Played to a reaction card.
-May only be played once each phase. (doesn't say your allowed to play it more then that, it might just specify for use by multiple players)
-The
reaction card may use its functions in reaction mode, moving to any
location. Any reaction card may only be used in reaction once each
complete turn.
-Return this card to the hand if the reaction card is of
equal or lesser strength. Otherwise, discard this card after use.
[/QUOTE}
The problem is the bold print above. Taken Literally, once you play the IR on anything, even if it goes back to your hand, you can't play it again for a whole turn. The keyword is ANY.
So, look at it like this:
Player A fires at Player B.
Player B reacts with a Time Skip on A's ship.
Player A reacts with a Time Keeper to counter the Time Skip.
By the definition on the card rule above, Player B cannot play an IR to the Time Skip, as it has already "Reacted" this turn, when it was played from the hand. You can't instant react it because it already has reacted. It can't react twice. And a Time Skip wasn't in play to start with prior to the weapons volley.
Another Example:
Player A fires a volley at Player C. (B was tired of being picked on)
Player C reacts by playing a Temp Engineer to the targeted ship.
He also drops an R/T-2 Asteroid Shield, saving the ship.
In Player A's next volley, he targets another ship in C's fleet. By most of your rulings (And this goes out to EP, Mog, Ara, and Rob) you could IR the Temp Engineer to move him to the new target, where he would be discarded to nullify the volley. BUT, the TE already Reacted this turn, and thus cannot react again.
As this is going to be the thread from hell, I'll leave it at this point with these words of wit and wisdom:
Just read the cards. I know, some are pretty convoluted. But a lot of them aren't written badly, just misinterpreted.
Peace.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 23 November 2007 at 3:57pm
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 11:40pm | IP Logged
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All I can say is, good thing that asteroid shields can't be the basis of a stack.
It seems one of those and an IR could protect the whole fleet!
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 24 November 2007 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
Actually, the rule is on the Ir card itself. "- played to a reaction card. - May only be played once each phase -The reaction card may use its functions in reaction mode, moving to any location. Any reaction card may only be used in reaction once each turn. - Return this card to the hand if the reaction card is of equal or lesser strength. Otherwise discad this card after use" So it is not violating a standing rule, but the rule on the card itself. This is from the Newest version of the card.
OK This is the part of the rule on both cards which is befuddling.. In All of our examples we have used the IR to move a reaction card to the front of the pecking order, hence to be resolved first. But on both versions of the card, it clearly states "to any location". In our examples we were'nt moving locations but merely moving it to the top; of the pecking order. This was the reason we played it to cards already in play earlier phases/turns. One such example.
Player A has a R/C4 marine on corporate homeworld.
Player B during his turn plays a C10 Spiritual Leader to his Angel's Treasure.
Player A reacts with IR onto his marine playing him to Angels treasure to kill the C10, also discarding the marine of course.
Before you argue the marine needs Transpo, the IR card allows him to go to any location. |
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The Marine can only be played to your fleet. It would have to say it can be played to an opponents fleet and/or location to go anywhere else. And yes, it still needs transportation, if you want it to kill something in someone else's fleet.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 25 November 2007 at 4:28am | IP Logged
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so Were, you say ignore the card rule which states "to any location".
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 25 November 2007 at 6:09am | IP Logged
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I'm about to the point of putting the Instant Reaction card on the dreaded 'Banned List', which would be surprising considering I was reserving that honor for the Reactionary World.
But, the Reactionary World can be easily dealt with, and restricting it to one copy per deck makes that even easier.
But the IR is again poorly worded, horribly mis-interpreted, and argumentative in the extreme. Everyone and their sister has their own spin on how this card should work.
So, even though I know I'm going to catch flak from Verc for this "Unilateral Decision", effective immediately, the Instant Reaction card, in any print format, is hereby BANNED from use in all Philadelphia hosted/sponsored Tournaments and Gatherings.
I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I won't have a tourney game come to a grinding halt because different people from different parts of the country see and use this card differently.
That is all.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 25 November 2007 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Tarquon wrote:
All I can say is, good thing that asteroid shields can't
be the basis of a stack.
It seems one of those and an IR could protect the whole fleet! |
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Thread derailment...
"You're defending your ship with WHAT!!!???"
"Yeah, that's an A10 Artificial Landmass I just put on that R/T2 Asteroid
Shield... " :D
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: The Issue of Instant Reaction
