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Tarquon
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 12:22am | IP Logged
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What do I get when I play a Mechad interface to a ship with a persona class
card on it?
All your opinion are belong here.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 1:45am | IP Logged
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Well, card text always supersedes the rule book, so unless there's
something somewhere else, then the simple answer is that the stack gets
doubled as per the card text on the Interface.
I could be wrong though... just my thoughts off the top of my head.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 5:14am | IP Logged
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Persona class cards can be played anytime onto your mechad ship and they too get doubled, since the interface make a simile ship. My question about the same card( E8 Mech Interface) is ... if on turn 5 I play the MI, when on turn 7 I play an Admiral to the ship does it get doubled on the copy or is the copy static since turn 5 (eg cannot chnage after doubled).? the way we played, doubling is not static...upgrades allowed.
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 5:34am | IP Logged
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Good question. Take the temporal engineer for example. Do I get 4 cards
or 2 when it's played to the ship?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 9:35am | IP Logged
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I'll let you guys struggle with this one. I already know the answers but I'll just sit back and watch.
If you get so crossed up that you can't see straight, ask Geko. He'll square you all away.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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RobPro
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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For the Temp Engineer: The E8 doesn't say to treat all cards copied as if they were just played. I would say two temp engineers exist, but only one of them was played so you only get draws from one of them.
For Persona-class cards: I think this E8 is more or less a big exception to that rule.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 11:50am | IP Logged
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Page 38 of Universe Rule Book, 2.0:
Persona Rules
Persona are One-of-a-kind personalities.
-Persona are indicated by the word 'Persona' under the illustration on the card.
-Only one of a given persona class card may be in play in any of the fleets at any one time. If a Persona class card is in play no player may play a second such persona class card until the first is discarded.
-If 2 cards designated as being the same persona are found to be in play at the same time, the most recently played persona card remains in play, the other is discarded. Note this can only occur if the first persona class card is under the affect of a time warp, time skip, or similar card when the second persona is played.
So, to answer the obvious: If you have a Senior Admiral on a Mechad ship and you play an E-8 Network Interface, Move the Admiral OFF that ship first. Then make a copy of the ship. It will copy the Admiral otherwise, but then the original will get discarded.
And before the card rules arguments start, remember that the NI just says it makes a copy of the ship and all cards on it. It doesn't talk about what to do with Persona class cards. That's what the rule book is for.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 12:50pm | IP Logged
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Actually, that makes sense. It's a fine distinction, but logical. I can live
with that.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:16pm | IP Logged
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then you cannot make a copy of any entity since you can have only one card, in your deck and if you clone/copy it you go against deck stocking rules????
But the technicality is, you are not making another persona, just a photo copy.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:31pm | IP Logged
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A photo copy with all the rules and abilities of the original. Sorry, he's a persona, and that means you can't clone/replicate him. It was the designers way of engineering in at least SOME balance.
As for an Entity, the stocking limit says you can only have one of each named entity in your deck. Now, if you should happen to clone your Primordial warrior on you AMRD to do T&B missions for you, then by all means, feel free. I do it, and it is perfectly legal, since he isn't a persona...
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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I would think you could clone the abilities of a persona, but not the card.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 3:08pm | IP Logged
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Tarquon wrote:
| I would think you could clone the abilities of a persona, but not the card. |
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Now, how do you do that without cloning the persona?
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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RobPro
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 3:46pm | IP Logged
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C6 Clone would do that, methinks.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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RobPro wrote:
| C6 Clone would do that, methinks.
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C-6 Clone:
Duplicates a crew card already in play. 1.) The clone may take
different actions than the original and may change locations 2.) If
either is killed, discard the clone 1st & move original to the
clone's location.
So much for that idea...
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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RobPro
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 5:01pm | IP Logged
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I have no idea what you're talking about. C6 Clone can duplicate a crew with persona.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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RobPro wrote:
| I have no idea what you're talking about. C6 Clone can duplicate a crew with persona.
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Sure it can. And the original gets discarded. Turn to page 38 in the Universe 2.0 rule book, and read the Persona Rules.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 7:10pm | IP Logged
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Everyone, please note the edition of any card you are quoting. the card
museum is a very useful resource, but it is not yet accurate with respect to
the latest printings.
C6 Clone (universe)
- When played, duplicates the functions of a crew card stack as if a second
such stack was at that location.
- If original is killed, discard the clone and move the original crew stack to
the clone's last location (less any ability cards added after the clone was
played).
I agree with Robpro - clone seems to do it.
and did anyone notice the Zedan Infiltrator or those hillariuos mimes?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 7:24pm | IP Logged
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I'll let Geko chime in on this issue... Too many changes in the cards for me to keep up with.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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RobPro
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| Posted: 22 November 2007 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
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There's two ways to interpret 'Duplicate.'
My view is that it copies abilities, not traits. I would say things like persona, prototype, and conjectural are traits. So is generating points (command or other resources). Abilities are the other text in the middle of the card. So when something causes duplicate cards, it's just looking at the middle. Going from that viewpoint, the E8 and the Clone is fine.
From Werewolf's view, the C6 Clone also copies persona. However, this does not discard the clone as the C6 Clone's name doesn't change to whatever crew it is duplicating, it just means that no other clones can be played.
Now, what happens to Clones that are already in play when one of them gains persona? I'm not sure.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 5:16am | IP Logged
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But the game designers putting in one persona in play is a lower balance than one entity, so you are contradicting the balance aspect if you can duplicate the big boys but not the persona. If the clone can duplicate then the MNI should be to also as well as mimes and ship mimics.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 7:27am | IP Logged
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Looks like we're at a crossroads gentlemen.
On the one hand, we have people trying to interpret the persona rules as a wishy-washy version of Magic's Legends.
But on the other hand, we have staunch supporters of what the rulebook says, and reading in quite literally that a Persona is a one-of-a-kind card, and can't be duplicated, replicated, cloned etc without the grievous repercussions of discarding the original.
So, while we all wait for Geko to toss his hat into the ring, this is where I as a Tourney Ref and self proclaimed leader of the Philly pack stand:
Page 38 takes Precedent. If you clone a Persona class card, whether it be with a C-6 Clone, an AMRD, and E-7 Cloning device or a Mechad Network Interface, the ORIGINAL Persona Class Card is discarded.
That ruling will stand at all Saturday meets and for the quarterly tournaments.
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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Well, first, can I reiterate when asking questions about cards, please quote the card's functions.
please pause while I go look the cards up...
doo, doo, doo, do, doo, doo, do...
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:00am | IP Logged
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Wow, okay, that took a lot longer than I had hoped it would...
The quick and easy way to interpret this would be to not allow anything to duplicate personas. It would solve a lot of the questions immediately. But, it wouldn't be true to my interpretation of the rules.
As, always... if your group disagrees with how I interpret the following. Come to a consensus, and play it the way you want.
What do I get when I play a Mechad interface to a ship with a persona class card on it?
You get a copy of the ship with a copy of the persona class card on it.
WHY? with the persona rules stating:
-Only one of a given persona class card may be in play in any of the fleets at any one time. If a Persona class card is in play no player may play a second such persona class card until the first is discarded.
-If 2 cards designated as being the same persona are found to be in play at the same time, the most recently played persona card remains in play, the other is discarded. Note this can only occur if the first persona class card is under the affect of a time warp, time skip, or similar card when the second persona is played.
Because the Mechad Interface does not bring a second card into play. It is a mirror image that is completely functional.
--------
Think of it this way. The Persona is saying that only ONE exists, but it is not saying that only one could ever exist. If, in the game, you duplicate it, then you duplicate it.
--------
My question about the same card( E8 Mech Interface) is ... if on turn 5 I play the MI, when on turn 7 I play an Admiral to the ship does it get doubled on the copy or is the copy static since turn 5 (eg cannot chnage after doubled).? the way we played, doubling is not static...upgrades allowed.
Upgrades are allowed.
Take the temporal engineer for example. Do I get 4 cards or 2 when it's played to the ship?
Only 2 cards, he doesn't get doubled until he is in play.
My view is that it copies abilities, not traits. I would say things like persona, prototype, and conjectural are traits. So is generating points (command or other resources). Abilities are the other text in the middle of the card.
But, that isn't true. It copies the entire card. Abilities, traits, etc. All of it.
However, this does not discard the clone as the C6 Clone's name doesn't change to whatever crew it is duplicating, it just means that no other clones can be played.
Correct.
what happens to Clones that are already in play when one of them gains persona?
- If 2 cards designated as being the same persona are found to be in play at the same time, the most recently played persona card remains in play, the other is discarded.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:20am | IP Logged
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Oh boy....
Geko... You let me down man. This is a classic example of why GE is so F***ed up.
You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Let's fall back to Magic real quick. They have two very distinctive cards that do virtually the same thing: Clone and Vesuvian Doppleganger.
The Clone becomes a literal copy of it's target, right down to name and color.
The Doppleganger does this also, except it is always Blue.
If I clone a legend, or try to Dopplegang a legend, by the older rules, the legend dies.
The newer rules state that they all die. If GE had lasted a few more years, I'm sure they would have followed suit with the Persona rules.
As far as interpretations are concerned, I've made my peace with asking for guidance from you anymore. Like you said, you're just a guy who plays cards.
House rules being what they are, I'm just going to stick with the rule book's call on things, and that's that.
I'll throw in a bit of what I learned in MtG and just play that way.
My previous decision concerning clones etc of a Persona still stands.
If anyone has a problem with that, take it up with me in person.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 23 November 2007 at 10:21am
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:50am | IP Logged
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As far as interpretations are concerned, I've made my peace with asking for guidance from you anymore.
I might just take you up on that. ;)
you're not going to ask me for guidance anymore because I interpret the card reactions differently than you?
lol... okay.
On more than one occasion, you can be quoted as let's get/wait for Geko's opinion.
Like you said, you're just a guy who plays cards.
Actually, I haven't played GE in a very, very, long time. A fact that I freely admit.
I'm a guy whose job, amongst other things, it was to interpret the rules, and make rulings such as this.
What I am trying to say is that, since the company no longer exists, there is no longer a governing body who's rulings are law.
I made this "ruling" keeping in spirit of the company. Whose golden rule was: Rules were made to be bent.
It would be a *LOT* cleaner if I had said no, no duplicating of a Persona is allowed.
I am trying to give each of you my experience, having ate, slept and breathed the game for a period of 5 years. (albeit 10 years ago)
Let's fall back to Magic real quick.
Maybe, that is a problem unto itself. You are trying to interpret things as MtG would handle it, and are drawing form your experiences with that game too often. Just because MtG handles their Persona rules differently does not mean that GE has to handle it the same way.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:52am | IP Logged
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Also, as a company we try to listen to our players.
Let's take a pole.
Everybody, please weigh in on how you would interpret the interaction of the Persona.
Would you allow the duplication of the Persona or not?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 11:38am | IP Logged
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Yes. I would allow people to duplicate, clone etc a Persona. After the clone etc effect resolves, the Original Persona is discarded, as the clone etc is the most recent version.
That's my vote.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:06pm | IP Logged
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In the interest of trying to keep things even tempered, I see the
disagreement here over a distinction between "duplicated" and "copied";
the distinction is one of context and semantics.
According to my Oxford dictionary (the most complete dictionary of the
english language and widely considered the most authoritative
dictionary), the definition of the word "copy" includes the use of the
word "duplicate".
That being said, I think we can make a distinction between the two
words as a matter of degree. It could be said that a copy is not to the
same degree as duplicate. If a card is copied, it could be thought of as
only reproducing the functions of the card and not the existence of the
card. A duplicate on the other hand as a result would be interpreted as
reproducing the existence of the card.
Hopefully that will help with the resolution of this disagreement here.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
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lol, thanks Mogwai... :)
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:23pm | IP Logged
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Hey, no problem. I'm just trying to think of ways to resolve things here
that allows a rational and logical distinction to be made to cover
multiple different events based on context. That usually adds to the
complexity of the game, and sometimes I don't like doing that. The
game is complex enough as it is.
In any case, I'm just trying to help a consensus emerge here. On the
one hand the simpler solution, because it requires less interpretation
and possible confusions in the kinds of things that could happen in the
game, is your interpretation. Frankly, I'm for simple solutions that are
clear cut, so I personally would side with you.
On the other hand, it could be argued either way, so I'm just trying to
help out here. I think the easiest solution would be to take a vote. My
play group generally tends to abide by the consensus decisions and
ruling that are made here, so it's sort of motivated self interest. :D
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: Interfacing singularities
