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super jew
Acolyte
Joined: 10 December 2007
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 11:46am | IP Logged
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Hi, if there is anything you could alter about the game when and if it comes back. what would they be and why?
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Biegel
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:07pm | IP Logged
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I wouldn't change a thing other than making some rules more understandable. I would like to see the development of the plans that were in the works at the time of the demise.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
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Like Most Spaceman said, cleaning up alot of the vaguer cards (Like Instant Reaction), restricting those cards that are most broken (Reactionary World), and thoroughly re-hashing the deck stocking and stacking rules, no, I don't see any changes in the games revival...
;p
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 11:14am | IP Logged
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There are some cards that need revision, such as the Time Skip. Another
area that needs clarification is the whole "discarded after use" rule. That's
been a topic of some significant disagreements here.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 12:35pm | IP Logged
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The "Discard After Use." line was used *WAY* too often when it wasn't necessary.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 7:25pm | IP Logged
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I don't necessarily agree that it was used too often, but what it means has
never been completely clarified. What the rulebook says, plus what is in
the GF's don't give a completely clear picture, that's all I'm saying.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 12 December 2007 at 6:29am | IP Logged
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A lot of the luck cards that have a vague "Discard after use" feel about them, will be rewritten. Acc Timeline, Scepter of time, etc will instead be written as : "Played to the discard pile." This way there's no confusion.
Some Occurrences will also be worded as such (Tech Breaks, A-Treaties etc, though in the case of the A-Treaty, it will be a dual use card: If played for card draws, it is played to the discard pile. If played for its effect, it is played to the fleet. Discard after time has elapsed.)
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 1:26am | IP Logged
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Changing it to "played to the discard pile" will certainly resolve a bunch of
the issues involved, particularly this idea that is commonly held here, that
is completely illogical, that cards that say "discard after use" stick around
after they're used... go figure.
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Biegel
Exalted
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 5:49am | IP Logged
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I still don't see a reason to alter the game. Indivual Refs at their turnys should have a basic Guide Line and set of Rules Printed that clarifies the most common misconceptions and Individual Groups style and interpatation of rules. The Ref is there to handle things that are not common occurrances and should not have to spend their time on such things. I feel a hand out of guide lines and Torney Rules would basicly cover most of the dicrepancies. Those who spend their time decrying the game will always be present as that is part of human nature. That a is part of us that there are down sayers. VIVA LA CHEA Bring back the 60;s Revive the Game :Flower Power(Think I Will)Ground Cotrol to Major Tom. Over and out : Most Space Man Biegel
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 8:40am | IP Logged
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Changing it to "played to the discard pile" will certainly resolve a bunch of the issues involved
It will also change how the cards are played. Playing it to the discard pile means that it cannot be reacted to. The discard pile is not considered in play.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 2:38pm | IP Logged
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Hmm, that may have unwanted circumstances. Like the Luck Demon. It could never be used to stop a luck card played to the discard pile if the rules are changed in that direction.
Ahh! Wait, brain is humming an answer: Re-word the Luck Demon, like a Time Keeper.
R/M-9 Luck Demon:(New wording) A being from another dimension arrives to alter fate.
-When played in Reaction, counter any Luck card just played, negating it's effect and discarding it. Luck Demon suffers damage equal to the strength of the Luck card negated.
-As a reaction each complete turn, may negate any one luck card, taking damage equal to the luck cards strength.
-Only damaged by luck cards it negates. May be healed only by non-luck generated healing points.
I LIKE it... :)
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 3:09pm | IP Logged
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Mind you... that is no longer a Luck Demon.
More of a Luck Devil.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 10:49pm | IP Logged
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Okay, the idea of "played to the discard pile" needs to be used with
caution; it will probably need to be evaluated on a case by case basis then.
I feel compelled though, to point out that in GF2, even though cards that
say "discarded after use" are still discarded if their action when played was
negated by something, normally a reaction card. Thus, when the card's
action is negated, it is sent to the discard pile and does not stick around.
At least that's how I understand it.
Regardless, this is an issue that absolutely needs to be resolved.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:13am | IP Logged
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Yes, when a card is negated it is placed in the discard pile.
this is an issue that absolutely needs to be resolved.
What issue is that?
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 9:41am | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
Yes, when a card is negated it is placed in the
discard pile.
this is an issue that absolutely needs to be resolved.
What issue is that? |
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Okay, this goes back to the big disagreement I had over the issue of a
Time Skip played in reaction to a Frayed Time Spindle, and why I took a
long hiatus from this forum.
I repeatedly argued for what you just said above, that when a card is
negated, for example a Time Skip played to something like a Time
Spindle, or perhaps a Time Wave, etc. you and just about everyone else
here said that the skip only delays the action of the spindle until the end
of the current player turn, and it then takes effect at the end of the
current player turn when the time skip ceases its effect.
I argued for exactly what you said above here, that playing the skip to
the spindle negates its effect, because the spindle says "discarded after
use". As I pointed out above, in GF2 is specifically says that cards that
say "discarded after use" do not resolve their actions at the end of the
player turn if their action is negated, with, say, a time skip.
(Now in contrast, a Planetary Destruction does NOT say "discarded after
use" on it, so in that case, it would stick around and resolve its action at
the end of the current player turn when the skip goes away.)
You and nearly everyone else here said the spindle takes effect when the
skip goes away, in spite of what it says in GF2, and now you're reversing
your position, agreeing with what I originally said.
This is EXACTLY why this issue is a big problem and needs to be
clarified; there is no clear outcome to how these things are resolved,
and the opinions on how they should be resolved change with the
winds...
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:06am | IP Logged
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No, I am not reversing my views on that.
I argued for exactly what you said above here, that playing the skip to the spindle negates its effect, because the spindle says "discarded after use". As I pointed out above, in GF2 is specifically says that cards that say "discarded after use" do not resolve their actions at the end of the player turn if their action is negated, with, say, a time skip.
See, the thing is, the Frayed Time Spindle's action is not negated.
The Time Skip takes effect, taking the FTS out of play. When the TS lapses, and is then discarded, the FTS comes back into play. If the target is still valid, the FTS takes effect, and is then discarded. If the target is no longer valid, the FTS is negated, and is discarded.
It is negated with a TS if, and only if, its target is no longer valid after the TS expires.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:10pm | IP Logged
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Actually, reading the FTS, it takes place regardless.
The 20 point rule, is a requirement for playing the card.
If you are able to play it, and your opponent TS it, it *will* resolve upon coming back into play.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:12pm | IP Logged
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Cards like Phaser Malfunction are negated with a time skip. Because when it comes back into play it is no longer the weapons phase.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 3:41pm | IP Logged
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Yeah Mog, what Geko said. The FTS would go away under the TS, and when the TS expired, the FTS WOULD resolve.
Now, the only change here is, if the stack of cards no longer totalled 20+, then that also would negate the FTS, and it would be discarded.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 5:42pm | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
Cards like Phaser Malfunction are negated with a
time skip. Because when it comes back into play it is no longer the
weapons phase. |
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Actually you are. You said right above, that cards that have their action
negated are discarded, but now you're saying they're not. You're saying
the spindle sticks around even after its action was negated. You can't
have it both ways unless the spindle specifically says it sticks around,
and it does not.
You are conveniently overlooking the "unless their action was negated"
part from GF2 here. When the skip is played to the spindle, the act of
making it "not there" cancels the spindle's action. Because the action is
cancelled, the spindle goes to the discard pile.
When the skip expires, there's no spindle because it had to go to the
discard pile because its action was canceled when the skip was played to
it. As a result, because there's nothing for the skip to work on, it is
discarded as well.
Further, there's also the point that the action of the spindle is just that,
a card actions. By definition, card actions take place during card play
phases, or in reaction in any other phase. The spindle takes it's action
during a card play phase, that action is then cancelled, it has no other
action now that it has taken it's action. What you are saying here is that
the spindle gets a free card action at the end of the turn, when it is not
even card play phase. Under your logic above, following the example of
the phaser malfunction and it not being weapons fire phase, then since
it is not card actions phase when the spindle comes back into play, it
cannot take any action because it is not a card play phase of the turn.
On two separate counts you are contradicting yourself here. Again, you
are claiming you can have it both ways, and haven't explained why it is
the spindle still has an effect, after it's card action was used and
negated, and how it can still take its action on a phase other than card
play phase, even after it already took a card action.
I'm sorry, but I don't see given what you say above that you're not
contradicting yourself, because you are, it's right in your last few posts.
I don't mean to be an ass Andy, but there is no logical basis for what
you are claiming, given the rules of the game and the way you yourself
have said they operate.
Edited by MogwaiSC on 14 December 2007 at 10:11pm
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:02pm | IP Logged
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Mog , the time skip is in essence a time freeze. The FTspindle doesn't have a duration so when it is 'frozen' it sits there like an ice cube and the stack does its thing, and when it thaws, the target is still there so it does its thing. But replace FTS with phaser malfunction or the like the same is not true. When you fire yoiur phasers, play a phaser malfnctn and TS it, the PM is frozen and the phasrs do thier thing, then the PM thaws and there is no phasers to affect so it is negated. Do you see the differnce?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:49pm | IP Logged
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God I hope he does.
Verc, H and the Jew have had this or some other TS variant played on or against them, and all agree with Geko.
The FTS is placed in Suspended Animation, if you will, waiting for the TS to wear off. It then resolves it's function. It's target is still there, so it does it's thing.
With the Phaser malf, after the weapons fire phase, it has no target, and is thus discarded when the TS expires.
It's really not that hard to figure out. Now if you'll all excuse me, this wolfie wants sleep... 2am arguing about GE cards... I should have my head examined... Or, maybe... ah, nvm...
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 15 December 2007 at 1:23am | IP Logged
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Then I will be the lone dissenting voice and I will not waver from my
position. You guys aren't seeing that this is an issue of logic, and not of
what kind of effect is used to negate a card action.
"Mog, the time skip is in essence a time freeze. The FTspindle doesn't
have a duration so when it is 'frozen' it sits there like an ice cube and
the stack does its thing, and when it thaws, the target is still there so it
does its thing."
Excuse me? You're actually proving my point with this claim that the
spindle has no duration. The problem here is that you're assuming the
spindle actually does have a duration and so it does stick around. But
that is simply wrong.
The spindle says 'discard after use', it doesn't say it sticks around for
three or nineteen or however many turns until it takes effect. It doesn't
have a duration because it has an instantaneous effect, then it goes
away. It does not stick around BECAUSE it doesn't have a duration. If it
had a duration, it would stick around, but as you point out, it doesn't,
so it has to be discarded.
Again, I point out the difference with the O10 Planetary Destruction. It
does NOT say 'discarded after use', so in THAT situation, and only that
situation, would it NOT BE DISCARDED. It would then take its effect at
the end of the player turn when the skip goes away. While the planetary
destruction does not specifically state that it has a duration, because it
does not say "discarded after use", the rule in GF2 about being
discarded after its effect was negated doesn't apply. The way we play
this is that the planetary destruction sits there until the next turn of the
player who played it before. On his card play phase the planetary
destruction then gets another card action and takes its effect. But, this
is not because it has a duration, this is because it doesn't say "discarded
after use" on it.
"With the Phaser malf, after the weapons fire phase, it has no target,
and is thus discarded when the TS expires."
This is a poor example. A better one would be what if a skip was
played to a ship that fired at one of my ships? What if by doing so the
damage was not enough to destroy the ship and the ship is still there at
the end of the player turn when the skip goes away?
By the logic you guys are subscribing to, the phasers would take place
and they would do their damage at the end of the player's turn when the
skip goes away because the target of the phasers is still there. The ship
or unit that was targeted by the phasers IS STILL THERE so then it would
take the damage from the phasers.
You guys aren't seeing the simple issue here.
You are refusing to accept that in GF2 it specifically states that cards
that have their action negated are discarded.
Playing the skip to the spindle, putting it in 'suspended animation' as
wolfie is stating, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that the spindle is
"not there".
In short, it doesn't matter HOW the spindle is negated, only that it WAS
negated.
What matters is that the spindle's action is negated by playing the skip
to the spindle. What matters is that the effect of the spindle was
negated. It's that simple.
That is what you are not seeing. Again, how the negation takes place is
irrelevant, there is nothing in the rules that says "with the exception of
the time spindle" or "time skips can't be used on time spindles", etc.
The rules say only that the action of the card is negated.
What's more, you're neglecting the fact that "discarded after use" is
card text which always overrules the rulebook. As a result, the
text of the card takes precedent over the rulebook and the spindle
would be discarded as per the card text.
You're getting lost in irrelevant trivialities that come from your
imaginations trying to put an effect on a card where those effects have
no basis in what the rules state. There is nothing in the rules stating
that there are any exceptions because the flavor text of the card says a
certain thing. The rules are blind to that and say not a single thing
about it.
You still haven't given a refutation of my position based on what the
rules state about how the cards are treated in that situation.
Sorry guys, but this is about rules, what they say, and the logical
consequences of the operations that following them brings about, not
about "effects" or "suspended animation" or anything like that.
With my argument about card text now added in, I've demonstrated
three different ways, from nothing more than the written rules of the
game, how what you are arguing for is not supported by those rules.
Nor have any of you demonstrated that the rules are otherwise with any
of the three arguments I've put forth on this. No one has showed my
argument to based on incorrect definitions, on what a particular rule
means such as in GF2 where it states that cards whose actions are
negated are discarded, or anything else like that.
Until you can show me how it is in the rules, specifically where it states
otherwise that in the situation like what we're discussing here is
somehow different, I maintain my position: A time skip played in
reaction to any card with an instantaneous action and no duration, that
means it says "discarded after use" negates the effect of that card and
that card is immediately discarded as a result.
Edited by MogwaiSC on 15 December 2007 at 2:07am
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Biegel
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| Posted: 15 December 2007 at 3:29am | IP Logged
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Negated or Posponed?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 15 December 2007 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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Ahh, the true voice of understanding speaks finally...
When the FTS is played, it has a target. When you react with a Time Skip, you are merely postponing the inevitable. The FTS hasn't resolved, so it can't be discarded.
A Time Skip is NOT a counter Spell Paul, please get this through your head. It doesn't negate anything! It merely postpones what was about to happen until alittle bit later on. When the Time Skip fades away, the FTS resumes what it was trying to do.
Stop giving us your bullsh*t "Logic" argument and play the damned cards right. Am I pissed off about this whole affair?
Damn Skippy!
Why?
Because it's idiots like you that make this game un-fun for those of us who "Get it", and you stay out of it Geko, I am needing this rant right now.
I used to think you knew what you were talking about Mog, but obviously I was mistaken, so do this: Leave again. I hear your village has posted a reward for your safe return.
For the rest of you, READ THE GOD DAMNED CARDS!!! Stop reading what you want it to say, what you think it SHOULD say, or what your pea brains believe it to say!
Damn, is the English frackin language that god damned hard to understand???
And Eagle, don't get started on me with religious bull sh*t... Or you can follow Mog...
__________________
"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 15 December 2007 at 11:56am | IP Logged
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Then by what you're saying, anything that is hit with a time skip
resolves its action at the end of the turn. The spindle does not amount
to a special case, which is what you have been arguing.
Frankly Mike, I've read THE GODDAMNED CARDS AND I CAN YELL AND
SHOUT WITH THE BEST OF YOU. IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DISCUSS
THIS IN A REASONABLE MANNER I'M GONE.
Bye. I won't be coming back. If you want to play a game that has rules,
those rules can't be arbitrary, which is EXACTLY what you're doing here.
You and Geko and everyone else is unwilling to adopt a consistent set of
interpretations for these kinds of things. time skip will discard some
cards but not others, etc. GET IT STRAIGHT ONE WAY AND STICK WITH
IT. Until you can do that.
so long.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 15 December 2007 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
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Hey, Mog. We had this discussion a few weeks ago.
"Then by what you're saying, anything that is hit with a time skip
resolves its action at the end of the turn. The spindle does not amount
to a special case, which is what you have been arguing."
This is what Geko pretty much confirmed. I don't know why people didn't dredge that thread up.
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Lobo
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| Posted: 17 December 2007 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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-I like my cat. At first, i hated the idea of having a pet. My wife has wanted one for a while, but i knew she wouldn't take care of it. But, i acquiesced as a cat is (presumably) less bad than a big dog. So, i take care of a cat now and sleep on the couch less often than i used to.
Every day when i get home, the cat meows, whines, etc. i always tell it "Cat, shut up, i'm here and you have food, no need to whine". The cat shuts up after a few meows, but now has a daily meowing/whining ritual.
The cat brings my wife some small amount of joy, so i tolerate the meowing (and occassional hair on the clothes found as i am typing). I guess it is the same way with all pets, you take the good with the bad and hope one outweighs the other.
Sure, everyone's pets have particular habits that annoy folks, but they tend to get over those. And when you're in those pet owners houses, if you enjoy their company you have to put up with the annoying habits of their pets, at least for a little while.
Talk later, have a good one.....Lobo
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 17 December 2007 at 8:43am | IP Logged
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Now, the only change here is, if the stack of cards no longer totalled 20+, then that also would negate the FTS, and it would be discarded.
That is not true. If you read the FTS, the stack being 20+ is only a requirement for playing the FTS. Once it is in play it is going to resolve. *read the cards* ;)
You are conveniently overlooking the "unless their action was negated" part from GF2 here. When the skip is played to the spindle, the act of making it "not there" cancels the spindle's action. Because the action is cancelled, the spindle goes to the discard pile.
The TS is not a negation card. It is a suspension card. The act of making a card "not there" does not cancel the card, but, rather, delays the card action.
The TS is a reaction sequence that is still in effect. The reaction sequence is resolved in reverse order. After the TS resolves at the end of the turn, the rest of the sequence then also resolves. The FTS does not get another action, it does, however, get to continue the action it was taking before it was interupted with the TS.
Okay, I might see why you are saying I contradict myself. Why is one card allowed to function, and another card not.
When the Phaser Malfunction comes back into play, it can prevent all the phasers on the ship from firing, but it doesn't matter because it is no longer the weapons fire phase.
Again, I point out the difference with the O10 Planetary Destruction. It does NOT say 'discarded after use', so in THAT situation, and only that situation, would it NOT BE DISCARDED. It would then take its effect at the end of the player turn when the skip goes away. While the planetary destruction does not specifically state that it has a duration, because it
does not say "discarded after use", the rule in GF2 about being discarded after its effect was negated doesn't apply. The way we play this is that the planetary destruction sits there until the next turn of the player who played it before. On his card play phase the planetary destruction then gets another card action and takes its effect. But, this is not because it has a duration, this is because it doesn't say "discarded
after use" on it.
We did not think of anything so clever. I wish that were the case, but like i said, we used Discard After Use on everything, and the company wasn't that consistant. If we would have reprinted the Planetary Destruction we would have stuck a Discard After Use clause on it. We could not however, because it was an Entity.
By the logic you guys are subscribing to, the phasers would take place and they would do their damage at the end of the player's turn when the skip goes away because the target of the phasers is still there. The ship or unit that was targeted by the phasers IS STILL THERE so then it would take the damage from the phasers.
I can see that logic. That isn't how we played it, but I understand where you are coming from. It was played that since it was no longer the weapons fire phase they could not do their damage.
"Then by what you're saying, anything that is hit with a time skip resolves its action at the end of the turn. The spindle does not amount to a special case, which is what you have been arguing."
That is what I am saying. The fact that it is a spindle does not matter. Any card should take effect at the end of the turn.
Damn, is the English frackin language that god damned hard to understand???
Yes, actually, the English language *is* that hard to understand. It is the most difficult language to learn. And, it is filled with contradictions and exceptions.
And, Wolfie, I don't care if you need to rant or not. Go buy a plant and rant away to it instead. Name calling is not called for. Mog has interpretted the rules in a different way than us. I can actually see *WHY* he interpretted it in such fashion.
Edited by Gekonauak on 17 December 2007 at 10:41am
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Gekonauak
IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1595
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| Posted: 17 December 2007 at 8:48am | IP Logged
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please don't leave because Mike (Wolfie) cannot be civil.
I appreciate your views. I understand them, and I posted a response that I hope explains my way of understanding.
This community is small enough, and I am sure I speak for everybody (sans Wolfie) when I say that we don't want you to leave.
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: Game Changes if it get comes back
