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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 2:49am | IP Logged
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First off Werewolf Christ died on the cross for you, buts that for you to choose. Secondly I'm sure you just left that parcheesi site shortly after you ignored your Hooked on phonics session because you dropped out in kindergarten. You were the first to say a police ship could do 30 points of damage and it was pointed out to YOU that you stated no modifications and no equipment cards. You said the card allowed this but YOU continued with adding phasers and it was pointed out to YOU that was modifying the base weapons and YOU defended that call against YOUR rule of no equipment cards. As stupid questions infuriate you then stop posting poorly thought out ideas. YOU always claim this about the designers of the game and yet YOU continue to do the same as those designers. Rule swith lots of flaws in it with questions that others want answered. In YOUR mind you know what you want and mean but have'nt fully expressed it that others know the exact same.
The idea of your does have merit and you are wanting it to shorten the game. I find the game that ends in 15 minutes dull.
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Biegel
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 5:10am | IP Logged
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As I see play testing any idea can only add to the game. If it can be made to work it could always be used at a turny for an alt. game ,say for those of us who get blown out of the main game early or a prelude to the main game. I suggested in another thread that for newbees a limited game of earlier series cards be incorperated into a turney thereby giving them something to look forward to while observing and learning from the ole timers. As someone who has been following the game for 10 years but never actualy played a complete game I see and feel the frustration that I am sure all those who are introduced must feel. The fact that so many of the early cards were over printed and that is how most of the newbees first come to the game only to find they can't compete on a level playing field must discourage the majority of new players. I think Wolfy is at least attempting to allow an alternate form of play that might open the game to more diverse play. It may actualy add to our player base.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 6:02am | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
First off Werewolf Christ died on the cross for you, buts that for you to choose. Secondly I'm sure you just left that parcheesi site shortly after you ignored your Hooked on phonics session because you dropped out in kindergarten. You were the first to say a police ship could do 30 points of damage and it was pointed out to YOU that you stated no modifications and no equipment cards. You said the card allowed this but YOU continued with adding phasers and it was pointed out to YOU that was modifying the base weapons and YOU defended that call against YOUR rule of no equipment cards. As stupid questions infuriate you then stop posting poorly thought out ideas. YOU always claim this about the designers of the game and yet YOU continue to do the same as those designers. Rule swith lots of flaws in it with questions that others want answered. In YOUR mind you know what you want and mean but have'nt fully expressed it that others know the exact same.
The idea of your does have merit and you are wanting it to shorten the game. I find the game that ends in 15 minutes dull. |
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Seems as though I struck a nerve... Good. Here is another example of people not reading the whole thread.
Most of my responses (Hell, ALL of my responses) were directed at RobPro's questions and comment. If you read the thread, you'd see that my replies were as if he and I were talking face to face.
The whole card(O-4 Suicide Mission) VS rule (The original post) was what I have been referring to.
My rule:
-The ship may not have a Natural (Unmodified) Strength higher then 5.
-No
crew or equipment cards may be in play on the ship so declared. Cards
played against the ship in reaction do not count against this.
-No
cards may be played on the ship by the controlling player that would
modify the weapons fire. (ie: No Lucky Targeting or Cat Reps)
-The controlling player MUST have at least one other ship (or base with a Tactical Officer) in play to protect their Sector HQ.
-Only ships may perform a Suicide Mission, not a Psy or Base. Dragons may also do these types of attacks.
-After the Weapons Fire phase, the ship is discarded.
The Card Rule: O4 Suicide Mission
-Played to a ship of equal or lesser strength in play against a fleet.
Allows the ship to fire its unmodified weapons directly at the Sector
HQ or Psy network of that fleet. -Discard the ship when this is done.
-Discarded after use.
The use of the term "unmodified" is a bit ambiguous. Both my rule and the card above use the term, yet they both have the same meaning.
I READ this card, which as Drakmoore pointed out WAS the inspiration for the rule.
The term "Unmodified" means, the weapons on the ship aren't modified in any way by outside forces (Lucky Targeting, Cat Rep, Phaser Magnifiers applied from external sources {Scorpead Comet} etc).
Adding Phaser refits or a Future ship isn't modifying the weapons fire (Hence the line: Allows the ship to fire it's unmodified weapons.), it is modifying the SHIP!
Example: I want my car to run a 12 second quarter mile, so, I can either have the clock started after I am a third of the way down the track (Which is modifying the time, by manipulating the clock) OR, I can add a Nitrous hit (Which is modifying the CAR, not the clock).
Both results would be the same, but in the instance of our ship issue, the first set of modifiers (LT, CR, and PhMag) are modding the weapons fire, while the other set (Ph refits, FS) are modifying the SHIP.
The weapons themselves can NOT be modified, but I can add MORE of them to the ship. Adding weapons does NOT modify the weapons FIRE, it modifies the SHIP!
This is why I said that the O-4 card can allow up to X amount of damage, where as my rule did not. Maybe I was exaggerating about 30 points of damage, but a Local Police ship, equipped with a hvy phaser refit and future ship would do 16 points of damage to a SHQ using the CARD version of the rule.
With the rule I have proposed, it would only do 6. A Scorpead Light Cruiser could only do 9 damage at a maximum, because I didn't put the limitation of modifying weapons fire into the rule. It could Magnify it's phaser on it's own, and gain the comet benefit (x3 total). Since it only has 3 phasers, it would only do 9 points.
And then be discarded. Hardly worth it IMHO.
Now, a Local Police Ship in a Scorp deck would be a problem, as it could do 12 damage (gaining phaser magnification from another unit), but you're really playing for the outside straight there.
Most LPS's in our group barely live a turn, let alone a Patrol ship. Anyone who thinks that they could build a kill all deck revolving around patrol ships is really off their rocker and for the obvious reason of the fragility of Patrol ships.
I do like the Meerkat tribe's patrol ship, since it doesn't count as a card play to play it, so I could theoretically play 8 of them in one turn, but again, they have to survive until the next turn to make the suicide attack, and they only have 1 phaser each...
Oh Boy!
Hopefully this has cleared up any misgivings about this proposed rule. As any optional "house rule" feel free to use it or ignore it. Until we try some extensive play-testing, I'm not backing it one way or another.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 16 November 2007 at 6:04am
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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RobPro
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 8:08am | IP Logged
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I agree with Eaglepreacher. Next time you post a rule idea, do it with as much description as you put into the post above.
And I still don't think it's good to have as a rule. It just cheapens the strategy. I will never shoot at an opponents ship with this rule in place.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 8:23am | IP Logged
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RobPro wrote:
I agree with Eaglepreacher. Next time you post a rule idea, do it with as much description as you put into the post above.
And I still don't think it's good to have as a rule. It just cheapens the strategy. I will never shoot at an opponents ship with this rule in place.
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That's fine, but eventually, he'll have so many ships in play, he'll be able to trash your S-5 fleet every turn. You'll never keep a ship in play long enough to have it be declared as a Suicide Bomber.
That's the other rule people keep missing. You can't just drop a ship into play, and then blast someone's SHQ with it. You have to designate the Suicide Mission on your Allocation Phase.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Biegel
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 8:38am | IP Logged
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I think that the whole concept is interesting in that there was a war once waged using this tactic and we know that it cost them their best men and finally the war. I think that playing this senario out might be like Spock- When the needs of the many... Having been in this situation might make one really think!
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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wolf, please tell me and if you can without going against your own rule, how can you add more weapons? please list class and strength of card...
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RobPro
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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He's saying you can play equipment cards to the ship AFTER you declare it is going on a suicide mission, but not before. I don't really get why that should work either.
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Lobo
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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-One quick note on part of your reply to me, wolf, then i'm out of this slug-fest:
"Remember, when the ship is played, it has to wait a turn before it can fire at the SHQ."
The ship doesn't have to wait a turn if it doesn't have an engagement cost. And there are quite a few lower strength ships that, with the (loosely-used term) modifiers you post above, make this assumption flawed as they have decent phasers and no engagement. Just something to remember, good luck with it.....Lobo
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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I dont know the rule states no e cards on ship delared, I take that as no cards at any time,
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 10:18am | IP Logged
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First, Wolfie, I have read the entire thread. Just wanted to point that out to you.
Second, please do not blaspheme. This is a public forum, and some people may be offended by your comment.
Thirdly, when you get this upset, get up and walk away from the computer, then come back and try posting with a little less anger. Your posts are coming off insulting to others.
A LPS can actually get more than 12. What is to prevent you from lending a x3 modifier?
And, just fyi, Gekos have an S4 that does 8 points of damage by itself and that comes into play fully-engaged. (Damn, I love them)
While I do agree with you somewhat, that shorter games for GE would be better, I don't know that this is the way to do it.
I do agree, that there should have been at least an O7 made as well.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 10:19am | IP Logged
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Lastly, yes, adding refits to a unit is not weapons modification.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 10:42am | IP Logged
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But adding weapon refits I take as going against your own rule of No E or C clas cards on the ship. If they can be added after the declaration then the rule is either ambiguous or meaningless.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
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Ok, let's see if I can remember all of this from the page turn...
Lobo, the ship has to be designated for the Suicide mission on your Allocation phase, so even if you Surprise Attacked with it, it can't go on the Suicide Mission.
Eagle, I posted your answer on a different thread, the one with the card art.
Geko, Yes, a Geko ship of that class would be painful, but try keeping it alive until the turn after it was played to be able to use it for a Suicide mission. And yes, an LPS could get x3 mag, but again, it has to survive until the next turn from being played to be assigned to a suicide mission. As does the ship lending it the x3 mag.
The rule is pretty ironclad, with the only change being allowing Psis to make a suicide mission as well. Mental burnout and all.
So far, we can see how this will play out tonight and tomorrow.
Peace all.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Matchbox
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 1:56pm | IP Logged
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ok first off, thanks to those that were trying to clarify this with me. but wolf it was a little strange how you posted the rule. but i am easily confused lol. so i dont know. whatever i guess.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 5:37pm | IP Logged
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The simple fact that there is so much disagreement over this issue should
indicate to everyone that the idea of having such a rule is flawed. Even if it
were play tested out so that the possible interpretations were clear, the
rule would have to be so long to make all those things clear, that itself
would confuse people as to how it's supposed to work.
It simply seems too complicated, because of all the possible
interpretations, and because of all the possible ways people could try to do
combinations and the like with it, to really be practical.
Let's all just get a bong... :)
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Aramax
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 5:51pm | IP Logged
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its a good idea for a change now and again
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 6:58pm | IP Logged
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Yes, but change for change's sake isn't usually a good idea.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 16 November 2007 at 8:08pm | IP Logged
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I'll admit, the rule could use some fine tuning, but if this style of round table discussion had been available to the original designers, we wouldn't be in the boat we are in now.
Just a thought.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 19 November 2007 at 8:03am | IP Logged
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Well, maybe to the original designers. But, by the time I came onboard we had a round table of playtesters that gave us very good feedback on the playtest cards. Some are actually a part of this forum (Verc).
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 19 November 2007 at 11:17am | IP Logged
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Sure, but the issues aren't with the cards from from the expansions, but with the Primary/UE cards.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 19 November 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged
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the true issues that you are having, in this discussion thread anyway, are from the original game design.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 19 November 2007 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
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Well, nothing I can do about that. I have two new players that are still feeling their way through, so radical changes in the midst of that is bad.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: A new rule for debate and discussion
