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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 08 December 2007 at 5:44pm | IP Logged
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The title says it all. With the possibility of a GE resurrection in the next year or so, I am submitting this poll:
Should Installations be treated as a Unit?
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RobPro
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| Posted: 08 December 2007 at 7:41pm | IP Logged
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I don't know if treating them as units is necessary, just limiting them to 1 installation may be played on turn 2.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 5:31am | IP Logged
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My first response would be yes. Now, what is the issue and why does it make a difference?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 6:22am | IP Logged
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A lot of the save your ass reaction cards only say ship or base, and a few of the newer printed ones say Unit. Unfortunately, Installations aren't units, so a standard build ship deck which is using reaction-defense cards designed for another ship/base deck, ends up with a lot of worthless cards, because they don't work on Installations.
An example: Read Phaser Malfunction, Misscom, Defensive Override.
You'll understand afterward.
Also, with the possibility of a revamped game comes new questions about what rules to keep and which ones to throw away or seriously redo.
Verc, Myself, and a few others are being tapped as part of the new rules team, and Andy, we want you on board as the art director.
As soon as H tracks down who actually holds the rights, and makes an offer for them, more news will be posted. He has already spoken to all the lawyers that were involved with the bankruptcy, as well as with the primary printer.
More to follow...
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 8:28am | IP Logged
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How can you say a installation is not a unit? R/L8 Targeting Error STATES:Targeting computer targets a friendly unit. -Player useing this card redesignates one opponent weapons volley to a ship, base, or sector HQ belonging to the firing player. Discard after use.) Isn,t it a given a base , ship, or HQ are installations? There for this card says they are also units. Imput please.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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Well, in the rules book under card types, it expressly says, " They are not considered bases." refering to installations. I cards are also played independently and can be controlled by opposing players. So I owuld then change my vote to no, Installations are not units. If the no vote is affirmed, then it would also have to follow that no cards can be played to the installations to increase either the shields or weapons of the 'I'. It already states that Characters cannot be played to the 'I' but must be transported there. We have to remember that Installations were left over by the ancients when the left the galaxy or whatever they did.
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 10:01am | IP Logged
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Unit: A single thing or person; individual member or part(of a group or number of things or individuals) A installation becomes part of the unit (A UNIT) as soon as it is played as part of a players hand. I think they (Installations) should be treated as Units once you play them or to them as they become part of the whole.
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 10:16am | IP Logged
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Installations are not Ships or HQ,s either. They become part of the whole once they are incorperated by card play. A unit is part of a larger whole unit. Therefore they would need a card play to make them a part of the whole Unit. Is playing an installation a card play? Would you need to play a card to it to denote it is part of the whole? I think the answer is somewhere around when does a installation be come a unit not that it is to start with or not.
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 11:13am | IP Logged
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Installations are not Units by the RAW (I know the question is "should they be Units?", but I wanted to get that clear first).
Installations do not require command slots and have no engagement cost. They pay for this by not being repairable and by being controllable by opponents through moving crew onto them.
If you make them a Unit for the purposes of card rules you'd have to make it so most any card which can be played to a base or ship can be played to an Installation as well. Still, I think that'd work against Installations as much as it worked against them, and would take away much of the flavor of Installations.
Personally, I'd say don't treat them as Units unless you're going to do away with one of their restrictions, and since being controllable by opponents is integral to their design you'd have to make them repairable. I don't personally like that, so I'd say don't treat them as Units.
RobPro wrote:
| just limiting them to 1 installation may be played on turn 2. |
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Installations are already limited to 1 played on turn 2. What makes them somewhat deadlier is that they come into play engaged and on Turn 3 you can play as many as you have in your hand. Still, Installations (particularly Comedy Clubs) have fewer weapons than most other ships or bases of their size.
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 1:21pm | IP Logged
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I still say they are not units to start with but as soon as cards are played to them they for the time those cards affect them are part of and therefore units. A crew from another player taking control of the unit simply changes who is in control of the unit(installation) till the next card play affecting the installation.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
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well I have no idea what the RAW is..... Also where is the rule they are not repairable, not that i am arguing that..
But this may settle some of it. staright from the rulebook yet again. Definitions Universe 2.0
Unit - A base or ship (a dragon but not a psy or installation.)
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 3:50pm | IP Logged
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"Tuo Shea" Eaglepreacher I should have looked there first. I went through everything else figuring it was a given. I bet Installations have been used incorrectly before. That elimanates alot of cards that I thought could be played to them. Eric's Definition in the 2.1 rules excludes mention of installations in defining UNITS
Edited by Biegel on 09 December 2007 at 5:50pm
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 5:47pm | IP Logged
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I have read both the Primary Rule book, which came with the early Universe starters, and the 2.0 book. In neither of these is there a rule that I cards can't be repaired.
I'll go check the Mags I have, but that would be a fairly limiting factor, and lend itself well to Installations not being units.
Ok, just checked the online FAQ, and there is nothing that says Installations can't be repaired. They can be repaired like anything else.
Though, that would be a better thing then making them units. All Structural Damage scored to an Installation cannot be repaired by any means, though shields regenerate as normal.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 09 December 2007 at 5:51pm
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Biegel
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 5:55pm | IP Logged
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In case someone missed my Edit. Eric,s 2.1 rules does not mention Installation in defining Unit.
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 09 December 2007 at 8:36pm | IP Logged
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rules v2.0 & v2.1 wrote:
| Repair Point: A repair point may only be used to fix damage to a Shield point
or a strength point on a ship card (but not a dragon card), or a base card. It
may also be used to repair damage on a terrain card, but not card damage applied
to the structure of a terrain card. |
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Repair points can repair the shields on an Installation, but not the structure of an Installation itself. It's one of the major drawbacks of Installation, and one of the things that keeps them balanced.
An Installation is never a Unit. Neither is an Equipment card (e.g. a Shuttle), a Crew, or a Terrain. Only Bases, Ships, or Dragons are Units.
Edited by ericbsmith on 09 December 2007 at 9:55pm
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werewolflht65
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ericbsmith wrote:
rules v2.0 & v2.1 wrote:
| Repair Point: A repair point may only be used to fix damage to a Shield point
or a strength point on a ship card (but not a dragon card), or a base card. It
may also be used to repair damage on a terrain card, but not card damage applied
to the structure of a terrain card. |
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Repair points can repair the shields on an Installation, but not the structure of an Installation itself. It's one of the major drawbacks of Installation, and one of the things that keeps them balanced.
An Installation is never a Unit. Neither is an Equipment card (e.g. a Shuttle), a Crew, or a Terrain. Only Bases, Ships, or Dragons are Units.
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Holy Crap!! E is right! I just re-read repair points... Dude, that is beast! Ok, I cards can stay as they are... And I'll tell you, alot of people in this area will be taking apart their CCN decks because there's no point running them now.. Woot!
And for the record, I looked in both the original Universe Rulebook, and the 2.0 book, and while the wording between the two concerning repair points changes only slightly, it could be argued that because the text is different from Universe Basic to Uni-2.0, the rules team DID know what they were doing, and it's true: Installations cannot be repaired.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 09 December 2007 at 11:38pm
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Biegel
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:20am | IP Logged
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OK For Clarification I have seen four versions of Unit. Three of them are written omitting installation in the definition of not a Unit. This site listing 2.0 anodated rules, Eric's Site, and the 94,95 Universe all exclude installations in thier deffintions as not a Unit. In The July1996 Version 2.0 Which came with Invaders gives the definition page 44, Unit-A base or ship(a dragon but not a psy or installation) So it looks like the company saw the confusion coming. By the way Andy is mentioned as the art director on the next page
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 8:29am | IP Logged
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I concur with Eric's original post regarding this subject.
Installation are powerful, they were designed that way; But, they were also designed with a major flaw, as I guess most of you are just now finding out.
I though that the whole repair thingy was common knowledge.
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super jew
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
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i think that they should yes i have read all 4 of them they all say the same thing but really come on there powerful but you can tell when they made a mistake when they made installations comes in to play and fully trned on come on give me a break they are extremly powerfull and u can no phaser malfuncation or desive orverride it case it is not consider a ship or base i mean not to complain but i think they should be a unit.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
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you can't use a phaser malfunction, but you can use an asteroid shield.
In fact, Installlations, from what I rememeber, are actually notoriously light in the heavy weapons deparment.
And, use crew to take them over. Every deck should be running crew as a category, with ways to transport them.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 10 December 2007 at 9:16pm | IP Logged
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Like I said before: WOOT! I already trashed my CCN deck, and my Council of Six deck, for that matter. Took all the best cards from both, and rebuilt my Co6 deck, to a lean, mean 160 card machine...
By the way, thanks to Andy and Eric for enlightening all of us..
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: Installations: Units or Not, Weigh in
