Galactic Empires: React to This! OR Why Your Mom Hates Me

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Topic: React to This! OR Why Your Mom Hates Me

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Lobo
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 7:59am \| IP Logged

-Howdy all. Quick question on resolution of reaction timing. Let us say my opponent has a ship in play. And let us further say i have a reaction card in my hand that can be played on anything 'but the basis of a stack'. Good so far i hope?

So, my opponent then wants to play something on his ship. Since this would make the ship the basis of a stack, i try reacting to the card play on the ship. My hope is that my reaction will hit *before* the card play, and my opponent would have to play a card in reaction (to the ship) to beat me out of that play.

However, i can also see the other side where the reaction is reacting to the second card play on the ship, thus it occurs before my reaction and my reaction is not a legal play. I'm left with trying to get the second card outta there instead of the first So, which way is correct?

Thanks in advance and no worries, neither answer will hurt my feelings.....Lobo

Gekonauak
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 9:22am \| IP Logged

Lobo wrote:

Has he played the card out of his hand, yet?

If so, the card is in play and on his ship, making it the basis of a stack.

Once the card leaves his hand, and you know what it is, it is too late.

If, however, he is making a general comment, like, "i'm about to play a card to my ship, if you have any reaction cards that you would like to play, say a Crikled Timeline or Vacuum Effect, now is the time to play them, because after I play this card from my hand, you will be unable to play your card.", then you will still be able to play your card.

;)

werewolflht65
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 12:26pm \| IP Logged

Geko is almost right, but not quite. The normal way it is played is like this:
Player A has a ship;
Player B has a Crinkled TL in his hand;
Player A tries to play card X to his ship. Since you can only react in GE to another player performing an action, the card is played to the target, then player B reacts to that action, crinkling the intended receiving location back ontop of it's owners library. The card player A tried to play is placed back into player A's hand because it doesn't have a target location to be played too.

The differences between Magic and GE is, in Magic, if I tried to enchant a creature, and the creature is removed from play (Killed etc), the enchantment fizzles and is discarded.

So, to all of us playing GE, consider yourselves lucky. You get to keep your card...

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Lobo
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 1:02pm \| IP Logged

-So in Geko's version the reaction cannot crinkle the ship, but in wolf's it can. I had thought that wolf's description was the way it was played, but am obviously open to being "taught". But you guys are just not helping, with yer opposing views and everything...

...thanks for nothin'!

Lobo, who figures he'll just have to play that Vacuum Effect as soon as he draws it

Gekonauak
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 1:15pm \| IP Logged

um... I know it is played the way I described, however. And, have ruled such in many many tournaments that I judged.

Once the card is played from your hand, it is played.

That doesn't mean that it cannot be reacted to, but it does mean that the card isn't floating in limbo.

Once it hits the table, it is considered in play.
The card cannot perform its function (if any), but it is on the ship.

Where else would the card be?

Gekonauak
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 1:19pm \| IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote:

the card is played to the target, then player B reacts to that action, crinkling the intended receiving location back ontop of it's owners library.

If you read the crinkle, it specifically states that it cannot do this.

"Played on any 1 card in a fleet (not the basis of a stack)"

Since you yourself admit that Player A played the card to the intended target, the card is in play on the ship. The ship, then being the basis of a stack, cannot be crinkled.

Just read the card!!! ;)

Edited by Gekonauak on 11 February 2008 at 2:02pm

RobPro
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Posted: 11 February 2008 at 5:01pm \| IP Logged

Question.
Player A has a ship in play.
Player B Crinkle's the ship.
Player A reacts with R/E1 Terrain Attack shuttle on the ship, making it the basis of a stack.

What happens to the Crinkle?

werewolflht65
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 6:21am \| IP Logged

RobPro wrote:

Question.
Player A has a ship in play.
Player B Crinkle's the ship.
Player A reacts with R/E1 Terrain Attack shuttle on the ship, making it the basis of a stack.

What happens to the Crinkle?

In this instance, the CTL is discarded, as its effect is negated by the TAS. Since it can only play to a card that isn't the basis of a stack, the ship now being the basis of a stack prevents it's effect, and the CTL is discarded.

And, I don't care how you ruled in the passed Geko, you ruled it WRONG! Try reading the rulebook.

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werewolflht65
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 6:27am \| IP Logged

Gekonauak wrote:

Ok, here is the problem with this version of resolution: No one I know announces their card plays in this manner. Not HD, Not George, not even Aramax's Group. They simply announce the card being played as it's hitting the table.

Since very few of us have the reaction times of a Mongoose, the card hits the target, then we go around in clockwise order from the current player turn to see if anyone has any reactions to the card just played.
If someone does have a reaction, the reaction card takes effect, doing whatever it's supposed to do, and play then continues.

Sorry Andy, you're wrong.

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Gekonauak
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 8:45am \| IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote:

Since very few of us have the reaction times of a Mongoose, the card hits the target, then we go around in clockwise order from the current player turn to see if anyone has any reactions to the card just played.If someone does have a reaction, the reaction card takes effect, doing whatever it's supposed to do, and play then continues.Sorry Andy, you're wrong.

You are correct, except for that last sentance.

The card is played, everyone has a chance to react to that card play.

And, they can react to it in a variety of different ways. However, they cannot crinkle the ship, not because of some rule in the rulebook, but because of the rule on the Crinkled Timeline. It states that it cannot effect the basis of a stack.

Reaction cards do take effect first, but it doesn't change the fact that once the card is played from the hand, the ship becomes a basis of the stack.

Edited by Gekonauak on 12 February 2008 at 8:46am

werewolflht65
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 2:11pm \| IP Logged

No, it doesn't. If the intended target is REMOVED by the actions of the Reaction card, which takes effect before the card coming from the hand actually hits its target, it's gone! It could never be the basis of any stack, because it's not there anymore.

That's what I am trying to point out. Yes, if you wait for player A to move on to something else, it is too late to do anything, but until everyone passes priority back to player A, the card he is playing to his ship/base etc, can still be targeted.

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Gekonauak
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 2:41pm \| IP Logged

But, you are not getting the fact that it cannot BE removed.

The card played can be targetted, yes, but in this case the ship underneath it cannot. The Crinkled Timeline itself states that it cannot.

When you play a card it "hits its intended target".

You can react all you want, and the last reaction card played DOES, indeed, take effect before any effect can be "generated" by the new card play.

But, it will never change the fact that the card is IN PLAY on the ship.

Cards do not float 3 feet off the table waiting for you to finish your reaction. They hit, and they are in play, once they are played. Otherwise, how could you react to it?

Edited by Gekonauak on 12 February 2008 at 2:48pm

RobPro
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 3:08pm \| IP Logged

If you want to get technical, the ship becomes the basis of the stack when the Crinkle is played to it.

Biegel
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 3:56pm \| IP Logged

Robpro I am under the opinion that the (Basis of a stack) would be cards one party plays to their own card. That first card being the basis for your own cards being played to it. Another players card being played to yours won't make it a stack. I think we have to think of the companies intend for a rule based on the whole to get an idea of how a rule should be interpeted. I see Wolf's point and I see Geko's point and after rereading everything that has been said I don't think either is refering to the same point. I think the time of play seems to be the sticking point on their opinions and can agree with both of them at different phases of play. As I see it Wolf is correct if the ship is just played Then crinkle away. Now if you play a shuttle to it prior to the crinkle the shuttle has made the ship a basis of a stack. Now I know there are shuttles that are R/E in later sets that could be the sticking point and create alot of confusion. If player A plays his ship. Then player B plays the crinnkle then player A reactes with a R/E shuttle Well Heck you Guys What happens then? Lets get on the same page. I'm lost in SPACE

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werewolflht65
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Posted: 12 February 2008 at 8:33pm \| IP Logged

Ok, time for a lesson in Sorcery (slow plays) versus Instants (Reaction Plays)

Player A has a Ship in his fleet that needs protecting. So, he take a C-9 Admiral from his hand and says "Ok, Card play 1 is an Admiral to the Vektrean Battle Cruiser."

Player B says "Stop! As a reaction, I play Crinkled Timeline to that Battle Cruiser."

In this example, the Admiral is the Sorcery (Slow play) card, since it's not going to the BC as a reaction. It's just being played there. So, the crinkle goes off before the Admiral arrives and is returned to the hand since it has no ship to play to.

Now, let's continue this...

Player A counters with "Ok, in Reaction to you playing the Crinkle, for card play 2, I'll play a TAS to the BC and have it fly over and score a point of card damage to your Scandig System, and return to the BC."

In this example, the TAS comes into play before the CTL can resolve, and makes the BC the basis of a stack. Now the crinkle fizzles and is discarded, and the Admiral lands on the BC as Player A had intended.

If the TAS hadn't been played, the BC would have gone back on top of it's owners deck and play would have continued normally.

This is the difference between playing a card to a location and playing a card in Reaction to a location. Just playing a card somewhere, anyone with half a brain functioning can react to it and cause all sorts of mischief. But if you are reacting to something like the above example shows, everything plays out differently.

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RobPro
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 5:42am \| IP Logged

Wolf, while I agree that makes more sense, that's not how GE works. The GE vets I play with agree with Geko's interpretation, as that's how the game has historically been played.

Another difference between GE and Magic.

Biegel
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 5:55am \| IP Logged

So this all come down to time of play and (cards played)-Reaction cards played and when they are played. Once a card becomes a basis of a stack it can't be crinkled. Yet the Crinkle could be reacted to after it is played negating its ablity to perform its function with a TAS because the TAS is a R/E. Now a regular shuttle just E(no R) or Admrial C (no R) , They would have to be played to the ship prior to the Time Crinkle play. OK now we come to player turn -vs- complete turn. I would assume that you could not react once a complete turn has transpired. (Once around the table) Yet you could react as other players play before your turn comes around agin. Am I correct in this?

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Lobo
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 7:36am \| IP Logged

-After reviewing the rules in all its various forms, finding a few cached pages of discussion on GE, and reading the cards again, it does appear that Geko is correct.

The problem for me is resolving the term "instant". In other games, the instant as treated as it it is played *before* the card it is reacting to. This applies not only to Magic but others as well. In GE, it appears that the card is treated as being played *after* the play it is reacting to. However, the advantage to the instant in GE is that it resolves its action first. In the case of a crinkled, vacuum effect, etc., the resolution still doesn't take because the card or play it is reacting to is considered 'played'.

I disagreed with this from the start, but after a bit o'lookin it appears that is how the rules and cards are intended to play. So, that's how i'll play it. Have a good one.....Lobo

werewolflht65
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 7:56am \| IP Logged

Just another reason GE isn't around anymore and magic still goes on and on and on...Like that damned bunny...

By the rules listed in the book, as soon as a player plays a card, the sequence is over, and there can be no reactions.

Personally, since I'll never play GE with either Geko or the New England crowd, I can happily say that that rule is laughable.

We'll keep playing it the way WE have since 1996. Henry should have paid more attention to Magic. It would have made GE a better game.

On a side note, I hope you are enjoying this Lobo, considering this is what you said you'd miss if I left.
IMO, Geko has lost it since GE folded, Elmer's crew is clueless, and everyone still playing GE needs to sprinkle in some MtG just to get an idea of how CCG's are SUPPOSED to work.

With that said, I'll shuffle off now...

Edited by werewolflht65 on 13 February 2008 at 7:59am

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Galaktische
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:04am \| IP Logged

I too enjoy reading a little of the discussion here on the boards but most of the time Lobo and I just puzzle out how we think it should work and try to remember it from week to week.

So long as everyone is aware of how the rules are interpreted locally the game should play well enough. The chances of the various groups meeting and playing is relatively low so the opportunity for disagreement is small - other than here of course.

J--

Gekonauak
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:39am \| IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote:

Just another reason GE isn't around anymore and magic still goes on and on and on...Like that damned bunny...

*sigh* the reason GE isn't arround anymore has nothing to do with the game itself. *again let me explain* it had to do with a printer mis-printing Primary.

werewolflht65 wrote:

By the rules listed in the book, as soon as a player plays a card, the sequence is over, and there can be no reactions.

Say, what?!?

werewolflht65 wrote:

IMO, Geko has lost it since GE folded, Elmer's crew is clueless, and everyone still playing GE needs to sprinkle in some MtG just to get an idea of how CCG's are SUPPOSED to work.With that said, I'll shuffle off now...

Oh, yeah... insult everybody and then leave. Just because people have a different opinion than *you* doesn't mean that they are wrong.

I haven't lost it since GE folded. It is the same way it has been played since Time Gates.

The analogy that you give isn't accurate. What you want is an interrupt, not an instant. (MtG language for those that don't follow) There are no interrupts in GE.

It all comes down to when a card is considered to be in play. According to the rules, and how GE has been played since its inception, a card is in play once it is played. Regardless of any reaction cards played.

Edited by Gekonauak on 13 February 2008 at 8:40am

Gekonauak
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:42am \| IP Logged

Biegel wrote:

That is not true. I can play cards against your stack to increase the value of the stack to make it susceptable to Frayed Time Spindles.

Edited by Gekonauak on 13 February 2008 at 8:42am

Gekonauak
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 9:57am \| IP Logged

Here is another thing to note... You can't react to something that is not in play. Once the card is played, it is in play (on the ship).

"Reaction card actions occur just before the action they are reacting to."

Their ACTIONS, not the card play themselves.

"LAST REACTION CARD PLAYED HAS PRECEDENCE: In a reaction sequence, the most recently played REACTION card will take its action(s) before previously played reaction cards."

Again, the card ACTION.

Once a card is played, it is played, and it is in play.

Edited by Gekonauak on 13 February 2008 at 9:59am

Biegel
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:47am \| IP Logged

Gekonauak wrote:

Biegel wrote:

That is not true. I can play cards against your stack to increase the value of the stack to make it susceptable to Frayed Time Spindles.

I guess that makes RobPro's statement about the Crinkle correct in a paradoxal sort of way.You can cause card rule takes presidence-But you can't cause the crinkle makes the ship a stack. Card rule prevail?

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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:37am \| IP Logged

Funny how that works out, and I can't say I'll miss Wolf when he stops posting. His attitude is too confrontational/elitist for these informal , 'friendly' boards.

Gekonauak
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:03pm \| IP Logged

RobPro - If you don't have anything nice to say...

I personally hope Wolfie doesn't stop posting. *I* can honestly say that I will/would miss his postings. He brings passion to the table.

Gekonauak
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:05pm \| IP Logged

Yes, we did address the fact that the crinkle itself makes the ship a basis of a stack, but decided not to reprint the card just to add "not including this card" or some other nonsensical comment.

We wanted to keep some of the value in TG by not reprinting all of the powerful cards.

Biegel
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:01pm \| IP Logged

I personaly wish that everyone who reads these words of wit Eats those Delisious Lobsters that Geko has leveling his chair and then contributes input into these )FOUR WALLS( That the mime just created on his way out the door(That he also just created)gets in his personal ship (that he still has to Create) and delivers my Lobster Biquisc that he'll create on his way here and a special thanks to all who made this performance possible who are the afore mentioned. I want Lobster Waaaa Is that a run on paragragh or are you just happy to see me? AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT: GUYS GUYS stop derailing the thread Pleaasse!

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werewolflht65
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 3:13pm \| IP Logged

::Rights the Locomotive: There, all fixed. On your way now Thomas...

Regional rules shall be the order of the day, and we can all agree to just disagree. Galak is right. I have about as much chance to play anyone not in Philly/NJ as I do of growing wings.

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werewolflht65
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 3:20pm \| IP Logged

Gekonauak wrote:

werewolflht65 wrote:

Just another reason GE isn't around anymore and magic still goes on and on and on...Like that damned bunny...

*sigh* the reason GE isn't arround anymore has nothing to do with the game itself. *again let me explain* it had to do with a printer mis-printing Primary.

werewolflht65 wrote:

By the rules listed in the book, as soon as a player plays a card, the sequence is over, and there can be no reactions.

Say, what?!?

werewolflht65 wrote:

But wait, there's more: According to the rule book, under "When can I play a reaction card/React to: section, it says i can react to any player playing cards.

Define a card play. Is it the act of playing the card from your hand to a location, or is it the card hitting the table?

I know it will be argued vehemently by Harry and I if I ever brought this up, so, let's clear it up here.

And while you're all thinking about that one, try this one on for size:

Player A is about to play a card to his only ship. Player B has a Vac Effect on top of his discard pile and a terrain in play with an O-10 Time Portal on it.
In reaction to the card play, Player B drops a Time Jump onto that terrain stack, causing the Time Portal to bounce the Vac Effect to his hand, which he then uses to Vac away the ship.

What say ya'll?

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