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Biegel Exalted
Joined: 19 October 2007 Location: Christmas Island Posts: 390
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
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Good bye ship (Till someone else decides to post)
__________________ mostspaceman
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 13 February 2008 at 4:00pm | IP Logged
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werewolflht65 wrote:
Define a card play. Is it the act of playing the card from your hand to a location, or is it the card hitting the table?
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What I am saying is that,as far as GE is concerned, there is no difference between the two. Once the card is played from your hand, it is considered to hit the table. Your reaction card can take its action before the action of the card played, but what your reaction card cannot do is prevent (or change the fact) that the card has been played to the location.
werewolflht65 wrote:
Player A is about to play a card to his only ship. |
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How do you know this? Have you read his mind? Has he told you this fact? Are you guessing where he is going to play his next card? Or has he indeed played the card?
If it is the last one, the Vacuum Effect will do no good.
Edited by Gekonauak on 13 February 2008 at 4:03pm
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werewolflht65 Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007 Location: United States Posts: 780
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:20am | IP Logged
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What I am saying is that,as far as GE is concerned, there is no
difference between the two. Once the card is played from your hand, it
is considered to hit the table. Your reaction card can take its action
before the action of the card played, but what your reaction card
cannot do is prevent (or change the fact) that the card has been played
to the location.
This is where we disagree about how a reaction card should play. But that's fine. You have your way of playing and we have ours. If GE were still "Officially" around, it would matter, but it's not. But, anyone I teach how to play the game will be taught the way I see reaction cards being played, not the way the "Company" had thought or intended.
Remember, Magic got it right and GE didn't.
Edited by werewolflht65 on 14 February 2008 at 4:21am
__________________ "Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Biegel Exalted
Joined: 19 October 2007 Location: Christmas Island Posts: 390
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 5:15am | IP Logged
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Wolf I disagree with you on weather or not GE or Magic got it right. This is a GE forum for a GE game. I have not played Magic or read any of their rules. I have read GE and am trying to learn it. I still see Geko and you as addressing the same thing and basicly saying the same thing with your own slant on it. Believe it or not you are both right in my eyes but both picking on the verbage of the other. I don't see where you or Geko have said anything different, just the same thing in different ways at different times. I think you two are living just to disagree with each other and confusing the newbees (namely me) in the process. Please state your difference of opinion (leaving Magic out of it) from What Geko has stated so that I might actualy see were you are saying something different Than Geko. I still think this disagreement between you two stems from point in time of -card play vs reaction play. Remember we are trying to follow the companies idea. I am sure you would address this issue with anyone you were teaching as to the difference in magic what not. That is fine if they understand magic.
__________________ mostspaceman
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RobPro IRC
Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 835
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 7:23am | IP Logged
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Alright, so it's NJ regional rules vs. the actual rules. There's nothing wrong with you playing the game your way, it's out of print and nobody sponsors anything for it.
However, from an objective view, I believe Geko is correct.
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Galaktische IRC
Joined: 27 June 2007 Posts: 354
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 8:20am | IP Logged
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In an attempt to help Biegel... I'll attempt to explain a concept from Mtg called priority.
In magic, the player whose turn it is is called the active player and posseses a 'thing' called priority. Priority, determines who has the right to play cards. If you have priority you are allowed to play cards if you do not have priority then you are not allowed to play cards. During the course of a turn the priority changes between players several times.
The active player (the player whose turn it is) plays a card and then must pass the priority to the other player - thus allowing him the opportunity to 'react' to the card play. Once the player (whose turn it is NOT) either plays a card or chooses not to play a card then the priority returns to the player whose turn it is. He can then 'react' himself or choose not to. If he 'reacts' then the priority again passes to the other player and this process continues until both players pass the opportunity to react. If at any time both players pass the opportunity to 'react' then the current phase of the game ends and passes onto the next.
I think the right way to handle GE reaction cards is in this manner. If I am the active player and I choose to add a shuttlecraft to my S10 Indirigan Battleship the player who does NOT have priority cannot react until after my card play completes and I pass priority to him/her. Once my shuttle hits the S10 then it is a stack and they cannot then play a card to the S10 unless it is allowed to be played against a stack.
If they want to be certain to hit the S10 with a card that cannot target the basis of a stack then they need to react to my allocation or engagement. Even then, I could as a reaction play the shuttlecraft from my hand to the S10 thus making it the basis of a stack. (There may be some question as to whether I'm allowed to play equipment as a reaction prior to the first main phase but I think you can - correct me if I'm wrong). The rule about last in first out for reaction cards then takes affect and my shuttlecraft resolves thus making a stack and voiding the other card's play.
It seems simple enough to me...
In MTG terms, Wolfy wants to use the card in question like a counter-spell. In other words it targets the card as it is being played and before it resolves (Geko described this as an interrupt and said that the game never had them - as an ex-employee I tend to believe him). Geko describes the card more like an unsummon which attacks a card in play.
I think the game needs 'counter-spells' but I agree with Geko that it doesn't have any and that the card in question cannot 'interrupt' the card play. I can understand Wolfy's point but I dis-agree that it should be played that way.
...and now I'll go back to work!
J--
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 8:26am | IP Logged
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the difference from what I am saying and what Wolfie is saying is this.
When a card is played, Wolfie interprets the rules as allowing opponents to react before the card actually comes into play.
As I am playing a card, you get to find out what card I am playing, and then react to it, before this card comes into play.
That is not the case. The rulebook does not allow for this.
Once a card is played, it is in play, then you can react and deal with the consequences then.
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 8:31am | IP Logged
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If you are allowed to react to a card before that card comes into play then how can you actually effect the card being played?
How can you crinkle my Temporal Correction? or my Miscommunication?
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RobPro IRC
Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 835
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:32am | IP Logged
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In magic, there is a time of "limbo" between when a card is 'played' and when it hits the 'play area.' Players could react to a card that was 'played' to stop it from hitting the 'play area.'
In GE, there is no time of "limbo." When a card is played, it is in the play area on a particular location. If someone reacts to that card being played, the reactionary card will get to take actions before the card in question, but cannot void that card by removing 'the basis of its stack,' because the card is already considered to have formed a stack.
Does that make sense?
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werewolflht65 Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007 Location: United States Posts: 780
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:41am | IP Logged
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Magic's concept of Priority is slightly flawed, in that they were trying to do away with LiFo because the newbies (re:12yr olds) playing in their Type Two tourneys were having a hard time getting a handle on it.
Judges were pulling their hair out trying to put out brushfire arguments and eventually enough of them complained to the main DCIs and the rules were changed.
True LiFo, or Last in, First out, works and works well. Look at this reaction sequence and tell me if you can follow the LiFo...
Player A Fires his ship at my Sector HQ.
I react with a Targeting Error.
My opponent responds with a Temp Correct.
I then respond to the Temp Correct with a Murphy's Law.
Now, in True LiFo, this resolves thus: Murphy, being last in play, goes off first, negating the temp correct. The Targeting Error then resolves as the Temp Correct is discarded, and the weapons volley goes into the opponents fleet.
This is True LiFo; it is also representative of the GE rule: last reaction card played takes Precedent.
And, this is how we play in NJ.
Any questions?
__________________ "Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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RobPro IRC
Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 835
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:20am | IP Logged
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Wolf, the example you just gave doesn't support your point at all. That is how Geko would have played that scenario out. The issue involves reacting to permanents.
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:46am | IP Logged
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i think he was just giving an example for Biegel.
Not really trying to prove any point.
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Biegel Exalted
Joined: 19 October 2007 Location: Christmas Island Posts: 390
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
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It still hazy as there are contridictions going on. I do get the jist just don't see how what you two are saying makes a real difference . You both seem to say the same thing in a different way.
__________________ mostspaceman
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
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yes, but saying it Wolfies way allows you to pull the ship out from under the crew's feet.
While, mine does not.
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werewolflht65 Exalted
Joined: 08 October 2007 Location: United States Posts: 780
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
i think he was just giving an example for Biegel.
Not really trying to prove any point. |
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Yes, that example was for Biegel's benefit.
According to the 2.0 rule book, Card plays are defined as actually playing a card to the game area. At no point in the book does it say that the instant I declare a card to be played that the card is at the location it is going to.
When you declare a card to be played, anyone can react (They are reacting to you "Playing a card" not the card arriving at its intended location) with any reaction card they may have, including the destruction/removal of the intended card play's location.
As I said before, you were playing it wrong.
It's cool though, no one in our group or most of the people here knew that Installations could be repaired either.
We're human, we make mistakes.
__________________ "Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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werewolflht65 wrote:
According to the 2.0 rule book, Card plays are defined as actually playing a card to the game area. |
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That is correct. Playing a card to the game area is the card entering play. The card itself defines where it is to be played.
We can go back and forth with this forever.
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Biegel Exalted
Joined: 19 October 2007 Location: Christmas Island Posts: 390
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:00pm | IP Logged
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Installations can be repaired? when was that change made? Also A time crinkle can take a ship out of play or does it just move to another time of play?
__________________ mostspaceman
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Eaglepreacher IRC
Joined: 21 December 2003 Location: United States Posts: 573
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 5:58pm | IP Logged
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Ok , point of fact, Crinl;ed timeline can only be played to one card not the basis of a stack. So when someone pointed out that the CT makes it a stack, it was'nt a stack when the TC was played. Also, here's a point of interpretation.... Can the TC be played to a card in a stack as long as no card makes said card a basis of a stack. EG T3 Crystal planet has A B9 custom base on it with a C9 admiral. By the rule on the card, the C9 can be TC'd.. Yes???
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RobPro IRC
Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 835
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Posted: 14 February 2008 at 7:52pm | IP Logged
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Ealgepreacher, that's not quite correct. The timeline can be played to any card, technically, but it cannot affect the basis of a stack. That's different than cannot be played... if at any point the card the timeline is on becomes the basis of a stack before the timeline resolves, it is voided.
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Gekonauak IRC
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1595
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Posted: 15 February 2008 at 8:15am | IP Logged
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Correct.
And, yes, you can crinkle the Admiral.
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