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Lobo
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| Posted: 19 September 2007 at 11:48am | IP Logged
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-Howdy and good day all, i have a (not) quick question. Planetary Base (B3 i think) states that the shields protect terrain from monster/hazard/whatever card damage. If the card does not specifically state that it protects from that form of card damage (ie promo terrain with shields such as the T5 Galactic Trade World) are the shields then ineffective in stopping such damage? Or does any shield value printed on a terrain card block/take effect in defending against card damage?
Follow-up: Can the shields printed on a terrain card be targeted by phasers or is it heavy weapons only?
Thanks in advance, have a good rest of the week.....Lobo
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RobPro
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| Posted: 19 September 2007 at 12:05pm | IP Logged
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Unless the card damage says it is applied to the structure of the terrain, shields will block it.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 19 September 2007 at 2:04pm | IP Logged
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Normally a BASE's shields do not protect damage being applied to the terrain. The B3's does.
All shields on terrain protect against this damage. The shields on terrain can be damaged with phasers, but the structure can only be damaged with heavy weapons.
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Galaktische
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| Posted: 20 September 2007 at 9:04am | IP Logged
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Is it true that a base, played to a terrain, must be destroyed before the terrain can be attacked with weapon's fire?
Can someone comment on this interaction in general?
J--
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RobPro
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That's how I've always played it.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:27am | IP Logged
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yes, a base protects the terrain it is played on from weapons fire, but not card damage.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 10 October 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
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And yes, any base that is called a Planetary Shield also blocks card damage with its shields.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 14 October 2007 at 12:05am | IP Logged
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werewolflht65 wrote:
| And yes, any base that is called a Planetary Shield also blocks card damage with its shields.
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Sorry, wrong. "Planetary Shield" has no meaning in the rules what-so-ever. Look it up in the rule book - nowhere is "Planetary Shield" ever mentioned (not even in the examples at the end of the book). The only way a base's shields will block card damage to the terrain is if a card effect states it gets to block card damage to the terrain. Note that even the B1 & B3 Planetary Shield cards (the yard stick we're measuring by) don't block card damage, they simply block Monster, Hazard, and Occurance damage (in addition to weapons fire, which all bases protect against). Card damage from another source would still bypass those Planetary Shields (and I can think more than of a few sources of card damage which would fit that bill - Terrain Fields, Orgonic Frenzy, Terrain Attack Shuttle, or an Orbital Mine all do card damage).
Edited by ericbsmith on 14 October 2007 at 12:19am
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 9:23am | IP Logged
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Hmmm... I seem to think that the "all Planetary Shields" clause was valid. That is why I didn't challenge it. Eric, if you have time, look through the FAQs in the magazines and see if it mentions anything. I don't have the time to do it myself.
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 9:42am | IP Logged
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perhaps we could be remembering the wording on the form for purchasing a custom base?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 10:57am | IP Logged
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The Uber Base George Stewart had made, DOES block card damage. All of the bases called Planetary Shields protect from both Weapons and Card damage.
Remember: CARD RULES take PRECEDENT!
All Bases protect the Terrain they are on from WEAPONS FIRE!
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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Tarquon wrote:
| perhaps we could be remembering the wording on the form for purchasing a custom base?
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The promo R/B2 and B9 Planetary Shields & the B4 from AF specifically state they block card damage (actually, the B2 simply says "absorbs damage applied to the terrain"). The promo B3 Planetary Shield has *NO* rules for absorbing damage, and the B1 & B3 Planetary Shields state they block Hazard, Monster, & Occurance, not card damage.
There is no rule in the book which allows Planetary Shields to block card damage, only weapons fire as per other bases. AFAIK there is *NO* FAQ or Errata for Planetary Shields allowing them to automatically block card damage. Maybe some was issued, but I don't know about it. Lacking a site to errata, the card rules stand and Planetary Shields don't block Card Damage (unless the card itself actually says it does, which some do).
Edited by ericbsmith on 15 October 2007 at 1:39pm
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
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Did you get to look through the magazines for FAQ? I know for a fact that it doesn't say anything in the rulebook.
I think, however, that I am remembering the card that Werewolf is quoting from.
However, that one card when it is *in play* allows other Planetary Shields cards to protect. It is not a rule that applies to all PS, if you do not have that one in play.
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 11:50pm | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
| Did you get to look through the magazines for FAQ? |
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No - I took a quick look in the FAQ and Errata which had been HTMLized, but I didn't look in the magazines. However, I'm usually really good at remembering where these niggling little rules are, and don't recall ever seeing anything on the Planetary Shields. If Werewolf has a site for his assertion I'd love to see it.
Gekonauak wrote:
| I think, however, that I am remembering the card that Werewolf is quoting from. |
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None of the Planetary Shield cards have such a rule, and I cannot find any reference to such a rule in the card database. Only a couple cards have "planetary shield" in their abilities, and all of those are to say that "Planetary shields protect this card."
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 7:52am | IP Logged
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werewolf? do you have such a card that allows all Planetary Shield bases to protect terrain from card damage?
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 9:09pm | IP Logged
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No, Just Medici's R/B-2 (The giant Donut base) and George's base from Hell, B-9. They both state on the cards that they block card damage.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 17 October 2007 at 7:59am | IP Logged
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okay, then we might have discussed it, and were going to issue an errata, but it never happened.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 17 October 2007 at 9:19pm | IP Logged
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This is from the old B-3 Hvy Planetary Shield:
9S -May only be played on planets, moons or large asteroids. - This shield absorbs monster, hazard and occurrence damage.
Which means, in layman's terms, it can stop CARD damage..
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 17 October 2007 at 10:37pm | IP Logged
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werewolflht65 wrote:
- This shield absorbs monster, hazard and occurrence damage.
Which means, in layman's terms, it can stop CARD damage. |
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No, it doesn't. Card Damage has a specific meaning in the rules which goes beyond "Monsters, Hazards, & Occurances." As I said, there are other ways of generating anti-terrain CARD damage besides - Orgones w/Frenzy, Terrain Fields, and the Orbital Mine & Terrain Attack Shuttles are all capable of generating card damage against a terrain which would bypass those shields.
Unless the Planetary Shield states it absorbs CARD damage then it doesn't. Also, as I said, one of the AF "Planetary Shields" doesn't mention absorbing damage at all - it's just another base as far as the rules are concerned.
Edited by ericbsmith on 17 October 2007 at 10:45pm
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
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Eric, not to come off as rude and condescending, but were you an idiot in a past life?
I mean, really, What are Monsters, Hazards and Occurrences? They are CARDS!!!
If I play an M-4 Planet Gouge to a T-4 Small Planet which has the B-3 Planetary Shield played to it, would the monster be able to affect it?
Card Rule:
9S -May only be played on planets, moons or large asteroids. - This shield absorbs monster, hazard and occurrence damage.
So, if the Monster is a CARD, and the shield stops MONSTERS, can't we draw a straight line and say that the Shield Stops CARD Damage?
Cards which say they can damage terrain without using weapons fire (The aforementioned TAS, for example) would still be stopped by a P-Shield.
You have to remember, P-Shields were never edited before the company went under. All you have to do is look at the custom bases that ARE P-Shields to see that.
Custom cards was the worst thing to happen to GE, and that is a fact.
The rules violations that they cause, and are caused by them being around is phenomenal.
:)
Edited by werewolflht65 on 18 October 2007 at 5:08pm
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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I dunno, must have been a lot of idiots in the past because I see it the same
way. That planetary shield stops card damage, but only if it is caused by M,
H or O. As printed no other card types are covered, unless there's some
errata (it seems not) or your local playgroup decides to read it differently.
eh, newfangled planetary shields...
I remember when the B3 PS was played and actually considered a decent
defense.
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bignea
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 10:48pm | IP Logged
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The way i look at it, if the base says it blocks card damage it does and if it does'nt it does'nt. yet the terrain attack shuttle which does card damage can't if any base is on the terrain.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 10:56pm | IP Logged
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Yep, I just re-read the TAS, and it says it can't attack a terrain with a base on it. (logically, it's because the base would just shoot it down)
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 18 October 2007 at 11:40pm | IP Logged
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werewolflht65 wrote:
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Eric, not to come off as rude and condescending, but were you an idiot in a past life? |
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No, I just comprehend written words. And yes, you did come off rude and condescending.
werewolflht65 wrote:
| I mean, really, What are Monsters, Hazards and Occurrences? They are CARDS!!! |
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So are Equipment, Dragons/Orgons, and Fields!!!!! And some of them can produce CARD DAMAGE!!!!!! The rules on a B1 & B3 Planetary Shield don't mention those card types, so they would *NOT* allow it to block Card Damage from those sources. Period.
werewolflht65 wrote:
| So, if the Monster is a CARD, and the shield stops MONSTERS, can't we draw a straight line and say that the Shield Stops CARD Damage? |
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NO!!!! Card Damage is a specific term in the rules - the non-weapons damage produced by a card (any card, of any type). Just because a card blocks damage from Monsters does *NOT* mean it blocks Card Damage. Even if it blocks damage from Monsters, Hazards, and Occurances it does not follow that it blocks Card Damage from Equipment, Fields, Dragons/Orgons, or any other type of card.
It *MUST* say it absorbs "Card Damage" to actually block "Card Damage" from all sources. It's really that simple.
werewolflht65 wrote:
| Cards which say they can damage terrain without using weapons fire (The aforementioned TAS, for example) would still be stopped by a P-Shield. |
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No, they wouldn't (well, the TAS would, but due to a rule on the TAS I overlooked, not the P-Shield). I could still drop an Orbital Mine on a terrain with a B3 Planetary Shield and the base would not absorb the card damage produced by that mine, because those shields only absorb M, H, & O card damage, and this card damage is coming from an Equipment.
SOME Planetary Shields absorb Card Damage. Some only absorb damage from M, H, and O cards. And one promo Planetary Shield doesn't absorb any damage at all (except weapons fire, which all bases do anyway). There IS NO GENERAL RULE which allows Planetary Shields to absorb "Card Damage."
werewolflht65 wrote:
| You have to remember, P-Shields were never edited before the company went under. All you have to do is look at the custom bases that ARE P-Shields to see that. |
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They are P-Shields, but they have different rules from the previously printed P-Shields. They were not reprints of the previously printed P-Shields, and thus are not considered errata to the previously printed P-Shields. Lacking errata, the rules on the previously printed P-Shields stand as-is... the B1 & B3 won't protect against Card Damage except from M, H, and O, and the B3 Promo doesn't even protect against anything except Weapons Fire.
Maybe they would have changed that in a later printing, or in a rules update, but they didn't. If you want to house rule it that all P-Shields protect against all card damage, then fine. But that's not how it is in the rules as written (or corrected).
Edited by ericbsmith on 19 October 2007 at 2:37am
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 6:42am | IP Logged
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Well, then your group can play it any way you feel like. Me personally, I'm done trying to fix a broken game. The game is a mess, and no amount of bandaging is going to fix it.
If anyone cares, I'll be tweaking my MDM Vektrean and Clydon decks, and adding some of the new Medici Astromorphs to my Mech-Mon deck..
Peace.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 8:09am | IP Logged
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So, if the Monster is a CARD, and the shield stops MONSTERS, can't we draw a straight line and say that the Shield Stops CARD Damage?
While it does block SOME card damage, it does not bloack ALL card damage. Just from the 3 categories it states on the card.
I'm done trying to fix a broken game. The game is a mess, and no amount of bandaging is going to fix it.
Really, you think the cards have errors all over the place, but in many instances they were actually designed that way on purpose. Just because not all of the PS did the exact same thing, doesn't mean that we screwed up. The different PS bases each did something different, as the things they needed to protect the planet from would be different from planet to planet.
Cards which say they can damage terrain without using weapons fire (The aforementioned TAS, for example) would still be stopped by a P-Shield.
Nope. Not at all.
Custom cards was the worst thing to happen to GE, and that is a fact.
I have to disagree whole-heartedly on this one. There are a lot of regrets that I have about certain custom cards, but without them we would not have been able to print the last 3 or 4 expansions.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 3:00pm | IP Logged
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Come on Geko, you know that's a crock... How many custom cards, built by players and sold to the public, are there in Magic the Gathering?
ZERO. And yet Magic is still around.
Hmm, makes me think that the custom cards were a bad idea, because it caused some of the player base to quit. If they couldn't afford to keep up, why play?
If an MDM deck was becoming the dominate deck design, and it is, despite what anyone here may think, and knowing the investment required to stay competitive, most lower dollar players were automatically excluded.
Like I was.
The only reason I stayed, was because I a) liked the game, being a sci fi kinda guy, and b) I have generous friends who knew eventually I would reverse my fortunes and recompense them for their earlier generosity.
Custom cards doomed GE to an early grave, whether it be from mismanagement at the corporate level or from a loss of player base.
No matter how you slice it, Customs were bad for GE.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 3:07pm | IP Logged
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I think his point was, without the money earned from the few who bought promo cards, the game wasn't popular enough to fund the sets by itself.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 19 October 2007 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
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Not true, since you obviously missed out on Origins 96. There were some 80 people there, buying and playing GE. It was very popular, but a few of the more astute players started pointing out the MDM effects and even pulled Shultzie aside and said "Yo, if you use this card, with this card, and play it like this, you have a very broken (ie: Please fix this) combo."
He just nodded and said, "Yeah, I know." With a big grin, and left it alone.
Ask George Stewart. Anyone with his Garshain or Custom base has his Phone number, and it's still the same. He had this chat with Carl, and that was Carl's response.
Bitch and moan some more, it's not going to change anything. MDM rules all. Without a Restricted List, we doom ourselves and forever doom GE to back-lot fodder and coaster card status.
Unless you specifically build a MDM deck for a new player (Like I do) What incentive do they have to want to play?
Edited by werewolflht65 on 19 October 2007 at 3:20pm
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RobPro
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Listen, if you try playing an MDM deck in my group, you're going to lose. If 10-20 cards in your deck do nothing but facilitate a combo to draw into your answers, they will be wasted slots.
As long as the people building decks do so with and adequate amount of disruption packaged it should never be an issue. But, I mean in 3+player games (the only kind I really have fun playing). In a duel, I can see this being more problematic. Still dealable, but harder.
As someone who had 0 promos his first year and a half or so of playing, it is impossible to play against people with them. They can just focus on your normal terrain with ships fueled by their awesome terrain and deny you everything.
Edit: And I'm willing to bet GE's sales weren't much compared to MTG's or a few other CCGs at the time, hence the income from selling promos was great to help offset the costs and still turn a profit.
It just seems like GE acquired 70% of the people who played the game in the first two sets and those guys stuck with it. Sure, a few have entered since, but there were die-hards at the beginning and they've carried the game on through the end. MTG has always had an increasing/decreasing playerbase, with newer players and old returners always going in, and older players rotating out. GE seems like it kept the older players the whole time.
Edited by RobPro on 19 October 2007 at 4:27pm
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: Shields
