Posted: 23 September 2007 at 9:35am | IP Logged

-Happy Sunday all, and for those Americans in the crowd, go watch some football. I'm on my way to do just that, but Galaktische and i are having a bit of a disagreement over the hazard H4 Cosmic Rays. The card (errata'd) reads something akin to:

Plays to location.

-Causes two points of damage.

-Knocks all crew unconscious.

it is my reading of that card that the two damage points apply to the location it is played to (ship, base, terrain) but Galaktische feels that the two damage points should not be allowed to damage terrain, thus not actually doing what the card says. Something about some rule i don't know about and some secret society of rulemongers that are out to get me. Any help?

Thanks, have a good day.....Lobo

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 3:36pm | IP Logged

What about this rule?

-         The only cards that can cause card damage to the structure of terrain cards are those cards that specifically state they can damage terrain.

I don't see the word terrain on that card (the H4 Cosmic Rays) and I couldn't find a precise definition of location. I understand that card rules override 'book' rules but unless we agree that location includes terrain in its definition then I don't think it can damage a terrain.

If we agree that location includes terrain in its definition then I agree it damages the terrain.

J--

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:01pm | IP Logged

I looked in Eric's ruleset and found this definition. A terrain is certainly a card on which other cards can be played - therefore I agree that the card can damage the terrain.

Location - A location is the card on which other cards can be played.

However, now that we've agreed on that I'd like to explore the issue a bit more. The definition of location described above includes every card in the game except those that specifically say thay cannot be the basis of a stack. Consider the R/C1 Doctor card, it is a card on which other cards can be played. Therefore it is a location and thus a potential target for the Cosmic Ray card... So my R/C1 Doctor can be the target of the two points of damage from the H4 Cosmic Rays. Which, I'm guessing kills him.

A Shuttlecraft can have cards played on it... I can target the shuttlecraft with the Cosmic Rays?

Is there a card which can be played onto an equipment, or an ability card? If so they are a location and can be attacked with the H4...

Is that really the way this is meant to be played????

J--

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:49pm | IP Logged

the r/c1 doc can't be a target of damage, the location it is on can, like the ship, base or terrain.

the shuttle can be a target, there's a crew you can play to it which the shuttle can be independent and protect the HQ.

the equip and ability are already at a location because they have to be played to another card at a location.

crew can't be a target of damage except psy's. So the H4 would be a good card to have against psy's, damage them or Knocks all crew unconscious.

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 6:14pm | IP Logged

I have to disagree with your statement, "the r/c1 doc can't be a target of damage, the location it is on can, like the ship, base or terrain."

• The R/C1 Doctor meets the definition of a Location therefore it is a location.
  • "A location is the card on which other cards can be played."
• The H4 (as quoted by Lobo) is played to a location, therefore it can be played to the R/C1 Doctor because... the Doc is a location.
• The card rules take precedence over the rule that crew can't be the target of damage and the H4 seems to say it damages locations. At lest that is how I understand Lobos point.

If the definition of location is as quoted from Eric's website then the Hazard can be played to him.

If the hazard can be played to him then it must be able to damage him because the hazard causes damage to the location it is played to.

If it cannot damage him because the rule book says crew can't take damage then I must argue that the hazard can't damage the terrain  because it doesn't negate this rule.

-         The only cards that can cause card damage to the structure of terrain cards are those cards that specifically state they can damage terrain.

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 8:19pm | IP Logged

yes the H4 can be played to him but rules state  A crew card is played on a ship, base or terrain card. so H4 can damage the location where the R/C7 doctor is at. The R/C7 location is a ship, base or terrain, the R/C7 can't be his own location like floating space by its self and even it could it can't be damaged by weopons or card damage because it's a crew.

as the card states

Plays to location.

-Causes two points of damage.

-Knocks all crew unconscious.

and crew has to be played to ship, base, terrain. these are the locations where the H4 has to be played.

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 10:58pm | IP Logged

You're ignoring the definition of a location.

I agree with you that it doesn't make sense, and in truth that is eventually going to be my point but I don't think that you can argue that the crew is a location.

Remember the definition of a location is:

"Location - A location is the card on which other cards can be played."

Ask yourself, is the R/C1 Doctor a card on which other cards can be played? It seems obvious to me that the answer is yes. If the Doctor is a location then the H4 Cosmic Rays can be played to him. Once the Cosmic Rays are played to him then, if Lobo's interpretation is correct,  he must take damage from the Cosmic Rays because the card rule takes precedence over anything in the rule book.

If there is a flaw in the logic then please point it out to me.

J--

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 7:43am | IP Logged

-I gotta say, i had no idea Galaktische was this mad i played those Cosmic Rays against him. Anywho, when i saw "location" i naturally thought it meant ship, base, or terrain. The fact that the word "crew" is explicitly stated in the second card rule sentence but not the first lead me to believe the drafter of the card did not intend for crew to be damaged by it. "Location" is a crappy word to use anyway, so i'm marking it out with a sharpie and putting "unit".

I think it should be able to damage a ship, base, or terrain and knock some people up...out...whatever.....Lobo

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:36am | IP Logged

Lobo, can you post the wording? I never found yours in the museum or the card database that Eric maintains.

I'm not upset about the play heck you've hit me with them every game for a month now and I've taken my damage. My problem is with the reading of the rules. As they are written the H4 MUST damage the crew - which is just silly. I think the card needs an errata.

Plus I'm working on my post count! :)

J--

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:39am | IP Logged

The wording on the errata version starts with:

"Played to a location.

-Causes two points of damage."

From there it goes into the second card rule about knocking all crew unconscious but i do not remember the exact wording. I'll post the whole thing tomorrow in this slot for review, don't have the card with me.....Lobo, still looking for that sharpie

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 9:20am | IP Logged

-Yeah, as i said earlier Galaktische will never have to endure me playing that thing anywhere but a ship, base, or terrain.

But Galaktische is a bit finiky when it comes to rules. Me, i can be bribed with beer and peanuts to agree with just about anything.....Lobo

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 12:57pm | IP Logged

RobPro wrote: I don't see what the issue here is. Sure, it causes 2 damage to a location. Some locations, crew & stuff, aren't affected by damage. I don't see why you would play it to a crew since it has the second effect of knocking crew out at the location.

The issue is you're ignoring the number one rule of the game. Rules on cards take precedence over rules in the rule book.

Quoted from Eric's version 2.1

"This is the most important rule in the game! Most of the cards have rules defined on them. The rules on the cards may contradict the rules contained herein. In that event, the rules on the cards take precedence."

The rule book says that crew (other than Psy) cannot be the target of damage. The card says that it damages the location it is played to. The crew is clearly - by the game's own definition - a location.

Therefore... the crew can be damaged by the card. It makes absolutely no difference what the rule book says because the card says it damages locations and the crew is a location. Therefore the H4 Cosmic Rays must damage the crew if played to it.

The issue is that you (RobPro) seem to be ignoring the rule that card rules take precedence over rules from the book.

Seems pretty simple to me.

J--

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 1:33pm | IP Logged

"what do you mean errata version? what errata? "

-I have two (2) versions of the H4 Cosmic Rays in my collection. The first and older version says something different, reads differently, than the second newer version. The pertinent language on the newer version, which i assume to be an errata/changed version to clarify its intended use, states (i checked over lunch):

Plays against a location.

-Causes two points of damage.

-Knocks crew inebriated, throwing up over the side of the ship for a turn (or something like that).

The older versions starts with the phrase: "Causes two points of damage and knocks all crew unconscious..." I will post both versions tomorrow when i make it a point to have the cards in front of me. Not sure it makes a difference, but the newer version is worded more clearly.....Lobo

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 4:11pm | IP Logged

RobPro wrote: Alright, but nothing happens to a crew when it takes damage, unless stated otherwise on the crew card. I'm not disagreeing that the crew takes the damage, I'm just saying nothing happens. That is my point.

I could probably make an annoying arguement that once the H4's damage has hit the crew that the rules for damage should kick in and apply to the crew but it is kind of weak and I actually agree with you so I wont.

I think the definition of location needs to be reconsidered. I'm curious to see what Geko thinks.

I re-built the J'Xar deck a bit last night, I'll try to post the changes I made to it after tonights game. I think Lobo is playing Dragons tonight and I'm kind of worried about being able to kill the D1s.

J--

Posted: 24 September 2007 at 5:11pm | IP Logged

now that would be a good card to play the H4 on, the D1.

ok a crew is a location, but you can't damage crew, thats the rule for crew but the crew is on a location also.. ship, base, terrain so the damage must go on them.

I think theres no other way around that, i think if we agree that crew can be damged that would change the game completely, i mean why would we have marines any more.

Now card should say any standard target which is ship , base, terrain. there are other cards out there that are in the gray area also but we need to stay with the basic rules that have been provided like the rule of crew.

Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:03am | IP Logged

-The exact wording on the cards are:

Version 1 (old)

Cosmic Rays:

-Causes two points of damage and knocks all crew unconscious (suspending their functions) for one turn.

-Automatons are immune to this effect.

-Discarded after use.

Version 2 (newer)

Cosmic Rays:

Played against a location:

-Causes two points of damage.

-Knocks all crew at location unconscious disengaging them for 1 turn.

-Automatons are immune to this effect.

-Discarded after use.

There ya go, have fun yapping about it.....Lobo

Posted: 25 September 2007 at 9:31am | IP Logged

"This would make for a very broken card, so let's go with it should only be played against a unit or terrain. "

-I agree, that's the way i've been playing it anyway, so not sure what all the fuss is about.

"I can't find it in the rulebook, but somewhere i think it says something about if a card takes damage equal to its strength, it is discarded."

-I found something on Eric's site under the heading "How Long Cards Remain in Play" that is close. Just raises more questions for me, but i won't be playing any cards that this will come up with, so eh...:

"Once played, cards remain in play until the actions of another player cause them to be removed from play and discarded (firing weapons, effects of occurrence cards, etc.). Some cards are instant and after applying their effects are immediately discarded (discarded after use). Some cards last a specific amount of turns and are discarded after that many turns have elapsed.
    - Any card that reaches a strength of ZERO is discarded."

There ya go, have a good week everyone.....Lobo