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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 4:00pm | IP Logged
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And focus only on the uber cards, as opposed to having a hand of half uber and half trash?
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 4:16pm | IP Logged
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Ok, Now this really wont make any diiference how the answer comes. First off how can you send a cloned temp engineer to the bottom of the discard pile, since the cloning device gives no card for the temp eng? secondly, even if you cloned the Temp Eng three hundred times how do you figure you get more than two card draws. Since the cloning is a card action, and it duplicates theTE which has already been played, technically the TE clone is not a card play. So therefore the draw two cards when played would not work. Also according to therules on the temp engineer card " As a card play, may be placed on the bottom of the discard pile, moving the card there to the hand.' Since the clone has no card and since you can't move a nothing to the bottom of the discard pile, would this function also be null and void.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 4:22pm | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
| Also according to therules on the temp engineer card " As a card play, may be placed on the bottom of the discard pile, moving the card there to the hand.' Since the clone has no card and since you can't move a nothing to the bottom of the discard pile, would this function also be null and void. |
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That is a very good point.
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 4:34pm | IP Logged
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I don't care what you say Geko, twelve good cards isn't whats letting people hold off three or four people for two hours or more. If you have to discard you think twice before you go MDM, the win condition becomes much harder without a limitless supply of ships and defense. If your careful building a deck you don't need to have ANY useless cards and even if you do they encompass maybe a tenth of your deck. I'm not saying it makes MDM a useless strategy it just lowers it down to par with every other strategy.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
| Ok, Now this really wont make any diiference how the answer comes. First off how can you send a cloned temp engineer to the bottom of the discard pile, since the cloning device gives no card for the temp eng? secondly, even if you cloned the Temp Eng three hundred times how do you figure you get more than two card draws. Since the cloning is a card action, and it duplicates theTE which has already been played, technically the TE clone is not a card play. So therefore the draw two cards when played would not work. Also according to therules on the temp engineer card " As a card play, may be placed on the bottom of the discard pile, moving the card there to the hand.' Since the clone has no card and since you can't move a nothing to the bottom of the discard pile, would this function also be null and void. |
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Interesting point, but you missed the card rules of Cloning device. I suggest you go back and re-read the card.
As to the 12 card hand limit, yes Drak, you may be right, but a well built MDM deck could still survive against a 2-3 player onslaught and still come out on top or close to it.
And to those of you who think an Acc Time Line is bad, have never seen it used in a crew attack deck, featuring MDM and O/B-1 Kenobi...
Can you say 40+ points of crew generated Time Damage??
I can... :)
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
Star Wreck, In The Pirkinning
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 8:59pm | IP Logged
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Wolfy, are you referencing the New Empires or Advanced Tech card rules for
the cloning device?
Even a ship from the present can take down Kenobi.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 9:33pm | IP Logged
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Either version works since they all use the most recent version's text.
Maybe so about the ship from the present, but on MY turn, when I load up that B-1 with all of the crew I just drew, and played because of an Acc-TimeLine, What happens next turn means little, since you're unlikely to HAVE any ships.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 08 November 2007 at 9:41pm | IP Logged
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Meh, if I drew O/B 1 in an MDM I would rather use it to check out the rest of my deck after dumping everything I could.
I don't think anyone here is out to nuder MDM entirely.....well maybe some people are but either way its a viable strategy, just needs some work in the fair department. In the end the rules should be simple, if a card is so good that EVERYONE NEEDS TO STOCK IT it should either A be restricted somehow or B have enough of a rules change to be effective but not all powerful. Since there are over 9 cards that fit that description I would say go with option B.
As for the cloning device the problem there is you could keep retrieving your DE from the bottom of your deck and reusing it as you would never have to sac your actual engineer. Only problem there is that anyone with a marine/luck demon/a million other cards could kill that, and everyone is gonna want to kill that. Though, I have to say, that is an inventive strategy.
In the end maybe a penalty for entirely milling ones own deck should be placed. Like if you have no more cards to draw then you can't win by default fleet size. Effectively considered 0 for sector HQ when determining early game ending. Just an idea to go with the discard thing as an alternate rules type.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 2:43am | IP Logged
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hmm. re-read the cloning device.. well Ok...let's seenow, maybe it'll help me see your point if I write it.1) each turn,during the engagement phase createsone clone of a crew card at its loctaion. 2) functions as if asecond such card is at its location. 3) there is no card to represent the clone. OK so what is your pont my original post still stands. How can you draw 2 cards there is no card play for the TE and you still can't move a no card to the bottom of the pile. perhaps that imaginary friend of yours which duplicates your function can go to the market and get us some Captn morgan. about the same thing isnt it?
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 3:05am | IP Logged
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I agree that the cloning device doesn't mean the cloned engineer gets to be
played and thus buys you two cards. But, the cloning device specifically
says "as if a second such card". So, this means that you're supposed to
play as if you actually had two physical cards at that location, and as a
result, if you can choose to use the clone to move it to the bottom of the
discard pile just as if it were a second physical card there.
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bignea
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 4:34am | IP Logged
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I have played that combo before with the L9 discard equiv at the bottom of the discard pile, lots of fun i may add, but no you do'nt get the 2 card draws every time because the clone is not being played it is duplicating a crew already there.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 6:59am | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
| hmm. re-read the cloning device.. well Ok...let's seenow, maybe it'll help me see your point if I write it.1) each turn,during the engagement phase createsone clone of a crew card at its loctaion. 2) functions as if asecond such card is at its location. 3) there is no card to represent the clone. OK so what is your pont my original post still stands. How can you draw 2 cards there is no card play for the TE and you still can't move a no card to the bottom of the pile. perhaps that imaginary friend of yours which duplicates your function can go to the market and get us some Captn morgan. about the same thing isnt it? |
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I NEVER said I drew any other cards (Aside from the two I get for playing the original Engineer). Believe me, I understand the card rules of this game better then most, and it doesn't take a degree in English to read the cards correctly. Ya gotta know how to read punctuation. That helps a lot.
The Cloning device creates a copy of the cloned crew card, though there is no card for the clone.
The cloned crew functions exactly as the original.
Yes, you can move the clone to the bottom of the deck, because the original says he can do that. Whether a card exists to be moved is irrelevant.
Remember the Golden rule of GE: Card Rules Take PRECEDENT!
That is all.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Tarquon
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 7:54am | IP Logged
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Well, you COULD interpret the second card rule:
- Functions as if a second such crew stack is at that location.
Means that the crew only functions when it is at that location.
(Of course that's only my opinion and I only share it with people who treat it with appropriate care.)
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 8:30am | IP Logged
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I don't care what you say Geko, twelve good cards isn't whats letting people hold off three or four people for two hours or more. If you have to discard you think twice before you go MDM, the win condition becomes much harder without a limitless supply of ships and defense.
What you fail to realize, perhaps, is that due to AT, I can dump all of the non-defense cards in my hand during my turn. Leaving only the cream of the defensive cards.
Even if you discard down to 12 at the end of your turn, MDM is still a viable strategy. Put AT in your reserve.
What might curtail MDM a bit more, is if you have a hand of 12 cards, you need to discard a card in order to draw further cards. But, again, that is a minor setback.
Edited by Gekonauak on 09 November 2007 at 8:31am
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 8:35am | IP Logged
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Well, if the rule of drawing no cards if hand size is 12+ cards were stricter, meaning regardless of what is in play, if you have 12+ cards in hand, you draw NO cards, that would work out better then discarding down to 12.
It eliminates Cyber Draws etc.
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Drakmoore
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 3:41pm | IP Logged
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Ok, so you draw literally half your deck, and where exactly are you getting the command points to play all your ships? I know there are a lot of sources, but not enough to make you near as powerful as it is now with a hand full of ship fodder to play at your will. As I said earlier,you don't need to kill MDM just cut it back. Keep in mind if you have to discard you never get a chance to allocate any of the command points from anything that generated them thus not allowing for then insanely massive fleet. This makes it a choice of playing heavy on command before you go MDM, playing low power ships, or dealing with your best ships and little replacement. MDM should be a viable strategy, just not the only strategy.
Edited by Drakmoore on 09 November 2007 at 3:42pm
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 3:42pm | IP Logged
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Wolf, Tarquon sees where the point of my arguement strikes. AT ITS LOCATION. If moved it is no longer at the location. Of course, this ruling would definitely severly restrict cloning devices and would perhaps make the marine depot less of a threat. If the card acts the same as the E7 cloning device. Well looking at the marine depot it does not have the same restriction.
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 09 November 2007 at 8:36pm | IP Logged
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Location is only a reference point because it's the location of the Cloning Device.
Take the example I used a thread or two ago: I have an Asteroid Starbase in play, and I play a CD to it. Then, I play a Temp Engineer to the base (drawing my two cards of course), then as a card action/function, I clone the engineer. I don't, however, draw any cards, because the Engineer is already in play. The clone appears at THAT LOCATION because the base is where the CD is located. The clone counts as a Temp engineer, and has all of the functions and abilities of the original (Hence the definition of a Clone), which includes moving to the bottom of the discard pile to retrieve the card that's there.
The whole location issue is the Starbase. The Cloning Device is in play on the SB, so any clones it makes will appear on the base. The clones last until the discard phase, and then go away.
You guys really should learn MtG, if you don't play it already. Magic had a long time to get it's sh*t together, and unfortunately for GE, it didn't. Token creatures are a big part of Magic these days, but the same rules apply to them that applies to regular creatures. Anything that a creature can do, so can a token. The only difference is, graveyard effects.
Let me explain.
If a token creature is killed, it goes to the graveyard (discard Pile).
Any and all effects that would be generated by a creature going to the graveyard would trigger. Once the token hits the graveyard however, it disappears, much like our cloned engineer.
BUT, that doesn't stop the clone from performing the functions of the crew card on which it is based.
I hope this puts this issue to bed. I hate going over and over the same stuff again and again. Just read the cards objectively. Stop reading only what you want the card to say, but just read the card. Put the periods and commas where they belong, and then proceed.
Time for sleep...Or maybe a few more posts... :)
Edited by werewolflht65 on 09 November 2007 at 8:38pm
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 10 November 2007 at 12:51am | IP Logged
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"Discarding" a card to produce an effect is a perfectly viable card ability and good basic card mechanic. It leads to making decisions as to whether it's worth losing the permanent effects of a particular card vs. gaining a temporary (but usually bigger) effect. Magic uses this effect on many cards.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the concept of the Cloning Device - in fact Magic has a card which acts very much like it (the Doppleganger). The problems arise when you mix a Cloning Device with sacrificial Crew. A better fix than outright banning of the Cloning Device would be to limit the clones so they may not perform any card action which includes discarding itself. That way, you can't clone Marines and send them on suicide missions and you can't clone Temporal Engineers and sacrifice them to bring back discarded cards. This would neatly fix the problem without completely removing the usefulness of the Cloning Device.
Edited by ericbsmith on 10 November 2007 at 1:05am
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Eric B. Smith
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 10 November 2007 at 2:43am | IP Logged
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That was my thought until I read the cloning device on the marine depot. Only clones attack capable crew, would'nt that be considered any of the sacrificial crew?
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 10 November 2007 at 3:27am | IP Logged
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Attack Capable Crew =/= Discarded when used
There are plenty of attack capable crew that don't sacrifice (discard) themselves as part of their card action. Any of the Boarding Parties, and even the C4 Marine if they only attack crew or equipment of equal or lesser strength.
Edited by ericbsmith on 10 November 2007 at 3:28am
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Eric B. Smith
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 10 November 2007 at 6:51am | IP Logged
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True, but I usually clone the C-5 Suicide Squad.
I'm not going to change how the CD works to suit a few. The card does what it says, and that's that.
If anyone wants to amend the card for their own play groups, feel free.
We here in the Philly Circuit understand how it works, we understand what the game designers were trying to convey, so we have no problem with the card, other then it is a powerful card that in certain circumstances can lead to MDRM abuse.
Which is why we restricted it.
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"Light Balls? You didn't ask for Light Balls. You asked for Light BEER!" Capt. Sergei Fukov, CPP Kalinka
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Aramax
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| Posted: 12 November 2007 at 12:20pm | IP Logged
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I dont think the suicide squad is more abusive than the Luck guy or even the Mad scientist,even w/a cloning device,might as well restrict them 2
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werewolflht65
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| Posted: 12 November 2007 at 2:26pm | IP Logged
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Both the Mad Scientist and the Luck Guy are Persona, so by that rule they already are restricted.
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: Game Types / Rules Sets
