Posted: 31 October 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote: You throw around the term Powergamer quite loosely. I play a game to win (first) and to have fun (second). Otherwise, why am I wasting my time? I play paintball to win. I play Magic to win. It is the Male need to win, to be the dominate. Only women have this need to play for fun. I know, because I've asked most of the women I know. "do you play a game to win or to have fun?" and they say (with an overwhelming 3-1 ratio) They play for the enjoyment of the game. ie: to have fun. Now, I'm not saying you play like a girl, but you definitely aren't embracing Machismo... Just my take... And Geko, HH's Tufor deck looks alot like my Bolaar deck. It's MDRM all the way... Next?

So I guess you play Video games on 'Girlie" so you can win.Me.Im good enuf to win with the weakest deck I can make and enjoy the challange,I play on Legendary-whose the girl?

Posted: 31 October 2007 at 12:35pm | IP Logged

Whoah guys, can we all take a deep breath here?

Mike, you don't have to be in attack dog mentality all the time. Why get extremely confrontational over this?

Is the fact that Bob's group has a restricted list that they are happy with a threat to your self image or something?

People have a right to disagree with you if they want. People have different preferences.

You're going to have a real problem even getting anyone to listen to you if you won't at least extend the same courtesy back when people express their own opinions.

Posted: 31 October 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged

oh cmon mike is mike ,hes passionate and so am

I,Idint take anything too seriously,I just really,really feel Im on to something,I know everyone has there own house rules and Ideas,Im just trying to get people open to my ideas, so that they can enjoy the deversity of play that my group enjoys

Posted: 31 October 2007 at 1:20pm | IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote: Truer words were never before spoke. In other news, Harry and I aren't speaking anymore, since Verc doesn't know how to pic up a phone and give people the bad news. And he's out of the game, once and for all. Apparently, he didn't like Geko's ruling on the whole Marine vs BP vs Crewman issue. A shame really, I was beginning to enjoy having him around. At least when he wasn't argumentative...

Im going to break my silence on this issue cause I cant hold it in anymore.

Harry showed a complete disregaurd for you as ref mike that is about the poorest sportsmanship there is.Its one thing to disagree its another to basically say your wrong and dont know how to ref,

speaking for Drakmoor and myself-good ridance,Im sorry you lost a friend over a stupid rule,that in the didnt matter one little bit since he could kill the ship w/his next card play

Posted: 31 October 2007 at 7:11pm | IP Logged

werewolflht65 wrote: Well, we play straight up on Saturdays, if you or Ryan or both want to join in. I have over a dozen decks, and only two or three would be considered anything like a MDRM deck. I have a few that are just fun to play. And yes, I do play to have fun too, I just like to win... :)

I have off on Saturday but its D&D day at my comic shop and Im running nit however there was nobody signed up last I checked so saterday is an outside possibility

Posted: 05 November 2007 at 6:27am | IP Logged

Eaglepreacher wrote: the metagame of GE.  Changes for balnce will never happen.  Not on the grand scale you desire.  To do that would require a new reprint of the cards and the old cards will be obsolete.  The quantity of cards will also need to be reduced with many of them just outright thrown out.  House rule ..well they rule and none are the exact same but few change the rules.  retsricte lists dont change the rules just the cards being played.  just mytake on it...  When you buy the rights and reprint the game, then we'll see.(even if the print computerized)

Is it scary or what? I tend to agree with everything you just said.

The game as it stands is in stasis. There won't be any 'official' changes until and unless someone restarts it.

The rules variants that I've posted are just that... ideas being tossed out into the public forum for comment and suggestions. I believe that there is plenty of room for improvement in the future, the question is exactly how much is really necessary?

The strategies and thinking I posted under the initial metagame post are within the existing framework of cards and rules.

Since making new cards or changing the existing ones isn't possible at this time, I was looking at the effect of the game rules as they stand right now as the logical place to go for experimentation.

From the comments on this board, I don't think that there are many people who are still playing that are playing 'straight up' with no house rules. So the question is why is that happening?

What I observed 10+ years ago was the dearth of truly useful cards, (despite that the existing card base was huge) and that the ones that actually were useful were almost all rare and very rare cards.

I strongly believe that the reason why that is the case is as an unintended consequence of the early design decision to mirror an ordinary deck of cards with the card strengths... ie 1,2,3, etc. The practical consequences of that meant that lots of cards had to be developed to fill those slots, and that is a real pain in the tush.

With only 3 people available to dream up ideas for cards, it is very hard to come up with innovative, scaling low level cards. That's probably the reason why there are so many frankly crappy cards. It is also one reason why the promo card runs were not necessarily a bad idea, because they encouraged the players themselves to use their brains to help innovate.

It is also the reason why I tend to turn to Magic the Gathering to mine ideas and concepts from.

IF GE is going to be resurrected, it will face an uphill battle in any form. Personally, I don't believe that simply reprinting the game as is (with physical cards) will work. It didn't work last time, and I don't see anything as having changed in the meantime to better the conditions.

The problems facing a new physical card version are legion. In no particular order... (and not necessarily complete):

1) The cardstock of the existing cards isn't very good for playing. Do you go for a better stock like that used for MtG or not? If you do, how do you deal with the issue of using old and new cards together in the same deck?

2) A physical reissue involves a fairly large capital outlay at high risk, especially since it is highly likely that all costs will have to come directly out of pocket from whomever tries to bring back the game.

3) Who are you going to get to distribute and carry the cards? Lots of shops and distributors got burned last time with heavy losses. Memories about things like that tend to be long.

4) Do you try to fix the legion of underpowered cards? If you do, how do you handle the existing cards? Do you ignore them or just try to work around them?

5) Different people have different things that they like/dislike about the existing game. How do you try to accomodate as many people as possible while not pissing off the Old Guard or driving away potential new players?

Most of those issues are either solved, minimized, or easier to deal with using a computerized format.

I know that Andrew has said that there is too much competition in the computer game field. I don't tend to agree on that. Computer gaming is full of niche markets, and GE would not need shelf space at EB or Wal Mart to fill a niche... it isn't competing with Crysis or Quake 4.

In fact, the single largest potential computer competitor elecronically shot itself in the foot by the way that they chose to implement the game. That would be Magic Online, who made the mistake of trying to sell electronic versions of the cards at the exact same cost as the physical ones.

Since the physical game itself is actually dead in the water, any computer version doesn't have to worry about competing with an existing physical release.

A computer version also only has to worry about the capital outlay to buy the rights. There is no rush to make a physical product, or try to set up a production schedule to keep new product in the stores. You only need to take the initial hit to buy the rights, then you're free to develop at your own pace.

I'm guessing that as long as there isn't a rush of interest to buy the rights that the rights themselves can probably be bought fairly cheap. As of right now, they are just an 'asset' gathering dust. Whoever owns it would probably be happy to get something real for it after all this time. The price would only go up if a bunh of people inquired after the rights all at the same time because that would imply to the seller that a bidding war is possible.

A computerized game is also not limited by physical factors. Once a card is physically printed you can't change it. That's not a problem for a computer game. Also, rules variants are not that difficult to program in. That would help keep people interested if they can play the game 'their' way.

We're talking about shareware and viral marketing and eliminating the whole 'collectible' from the equation. Any buyer of the game would get full access to any card included in the first version for use in decks. Future releases would just make the available card pool bigger.

Comments?

Posted: 05 November 2007 at 8:00am | IP Logged

I'm not sure that the basic rights for use of the name is dead. That could be a really costly assumption, and its not something that anyone with something to lose can really afford to ignore.

As far as the code goes, it looks like I need to do a further amount of explanation.

You're not trying to make a triple A+ game here like Crysis or Quake 4. What does that mean? Those games are known for super high end complicated graphics. Providing cutting edge graphics for a computer game is the single greatest cost, not only in developing the graphics but because you're trying to produce the wow factor you are time-limited in how long you have to develop your product and get it to market. Ever wonder why it has taken so long to get Duke Nukem Forever to release? Its because the game took so long to develop that each time it was close to being done the graphics engine wasn't competitive anymore so everything got tossed and the team started from scratch again.

For a computerized GE, the only graphics you honestly need for the most basic version is to scan in cards and use PC paintbrush or any other off the shelf image editting program to modify images as needed.

What you're dealing with is basic programming using Visual Basic or Visual C because both those environments are good modular programming environments for Windows. I could probably do it myself given enough time.

Since the graphics don't have to be cutting edge and there shouldn't be a huge capital investment hanging over your head to set this up this is very much viable as a garage programming venture that can be worked on in someone's spare time.

It not like the game is going to do anything in the meantime while something like this is worked on.

Posted: 05 November 2007 at 9:58am | IP Logged

RobPro wrote: I don't believe you would be able to use the art for the cards. And I do think a physical "reboot" would be possible, it would just take a fair amount of capital and a small team of people willing to push it. I don't see a problem with the way deckstocking works as far as making a constructed deck. However, I do think the low-level cards that don't see play at the top should be useful in a draft. You should be able to run tournaments with one universe starter and 3-5 universe booster packs. People like games like that, it helps keep the format fresh and there's no barrier to entry (besides knowing the rules) other than throwing down $20 to play. People love that about pre-releases, I don't see why a dedicated group of individuals couldn't run a competition at a large convention to promote the game. Step 1: Find a large gaming convention Step 2: Get a lot of space Step 3: Teach people how to play the first day of the con, hand out free starters, etc. Step 4: Run a tournament the second day, have a -lot- of people working for rules support, offer to teach while playing Step 5: Pay out a large cash prize to the first person, give them some other bonus to show they are "the king" of this game. This worked for a small game called Mystical Empire. They got -a lot- of people to play by having a $50,000 prize at GenCon last year (2006). They did it with their constructed format, but I think a draft with $5,000-$10,000 would be more than fair for GE. But then they screwed up. The creators don't update the site or post in their forums. I picked up a few collections for cheap on the internet, as I enjoy it, but I don't expect to see it doing anything anytime soon. If they had followed through, they'd pretty much have established themselves. However, I don't think it would be healthy to allow old GE cards to be used in this new game. At least, not for a long time. It wouldn't be healthy for a "new" game to follow down the same paths of the old game. Sure, a lot of the cards could be reprinted, but in a professional tournament you can't allow cards from 10+years ago to people with little chance of buying them. Not until you've printed 5-8 sets and maybe re-released some of the promos as free cards for attending certain events. If this really took off, you could eventually make my Reactionary Worlds worth $100+ 8)

You're now talking a considerable up front capital investment, and on something that didn't have a successful track record the first time around. Good luck trying to get that kind of money. :)

That's why I said that I believe the computer version is a more viable and realistic way to go. It gives you the time and wiggle room to catch on without the hammer of needing to repay investors hanging over your head.