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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 02 January 2007 at 2:27pm | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

ok situational question here.  If I play The t1 Expanding universe with the rule increases in strength 1 per turn and generates economy equal to its strength And I play an A10 Artificial landmass which it raises the strength to 20 and repairs 5 damage to terrain per turn; On the next round does it generate 20 economy? on the round after that does it generate 21 or stay at 20?  If after 5 rounds the A10 is time skipped do I generate 25 economy or 5 or 1?  And once the A10 comes back, does it resume at 26 or begin again at 20?  And what if the A10 ability cards is somehow negated rather than time skipped?  OK what about this  I play the same 2 cards does the strength and economy generated stay at twnety or does it stay at 20 until 21 rounds later when the strength of the expanding universe would be larger than the A10 under normal circumstances? 

PS. we played no... can the vektrean T/B's have artificial Landmass? 



Edited by Eaglepreacher on 02 January 2007 at 2:28pm
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RobPro
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Posted: 02 January 2007 at 11:11pm | IP Logged Quote RobPro

Can the T1 be combined with the A10? 
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Tarquon
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Posted: 03 January 2007 at 12:37am | IP Logged Quote Tarquon

I would rule as:

A1) the A10 makes the terrain strength 20 regardless of what it would
normally be.
A2) if the A10 effect is somehow negated then the terrain's strength
becomes normal. For the expanding universe, that would require
tracking the turns-in-play.
and
B1) an A10 won't work on T/Bs because a T/B is a base card for all
purposes except entering play and taking damage.

under that ruling, the stack would never become >20, but the owner
should discard/disengage the A10 at turn 20 to allow the universe to
expand without restriction.

(what if a R/H5 Time Accelerant is played to an expanding universe? That
probably shouldn't work, because then you would play a quark to it
and ...)
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Gekonauak
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Posted: 03 January 2007 at 7:28am | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

Wow, a ton of questions.

Let's see if I can get through them all.

On the next round does it generate 20 economy?
On the next round it would actually generate 21 economy.
On the round after that it would generate 22 economy.

The rule on the expanding universe that states it cannot be combined refers to combining to other terrain.

If after 5 rounds the A10 is time skipped do I generate 25 economy or 5 or 1?

if after 5 rounds the A10 is Time Skipped the terrain would generate 5 eceonomy.

And once the A10 comes back, does it resume at 26 or begin again at 20?

After the A10 comes back it would generate 26 economy.

does the strength and economy generated stay at twnety or does it stay at 20 until 21 rounds later when the strength of the expanding universe would be larger than the A10 under normal circumstances?

Of course, you could play it that way, but that is not how I would rule it in a tournament.

And what if the A10 ability cards is somehow negated rather than time skipped?
You have to keep track of how long the T1 is in play. That determines what economy it generates.

can the vektrean T/B's have artificial Landmass?
As Tarquon mentioned. The T/B is a base, and cannot have the A10 played to it.

what if a R/H5 Time Accelerant is played to an expanding universe?
This one has never been officially ruled upon (i don't think).

There are two things that could possibly happen. Either, it would do nothing because the T1 does not have a duration. Or it would generate infinite economy.

The second case would also allow the Maelstrom to do infinite damage.

But the H5 says to the end of its duration. Which technically would mean that you would only get the infinite economy for one turn. It would cause the T1 to explode. :)


Edited by Gekonauak on 03 January 2007 at 7:31am
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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 03 January 2007 at 3:08pm | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

In the case of the H5 Time accelerate, we played it as useless if played on the T1.  As Geko said it would speed it to infinity but it in essense would create  ZERO economy because it is discarded at the end of the turn and hence the next round would not be in play to generate the economy.  But either way we ruled it could only be used a card that has a duration or exponential  duration such as the maelstrom.
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Tarquon
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Posted: 03 January 2007 at 10:56pm | IP Logged Quote Tarquon

In turns <20 I would expect the A10 to peg the T1 terrain's strength at 20
because it doesn't add a fixed number to the terrain's strength, it just
makes the end result a strength of 20.

As to the infiniteness of the Expanding Universe...
Yes, the root question seems to be whether the T1 has a duration.

If it does, then you could rule that the H5 Time Accelerant leaves the T1
with infinite strength when it leaves play since it is not the H5 that adds
strength to the T1 but the infinite application of the T1's increasing
strength rule.

Or you could argue that the H5 is never discarded since reaching infinity
is never 'done':
"Discarded after use - Cards that are discarded after use are not
discarded until they are done performing any functions that they
perform."

I don't really need infinite economy, but I would give up the universe for
my deck. I see a reserve fleet consisting of the Expanding Universe, Time
Accelerant and Quark - and many irate opponents on turn 2.
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Gekonauak
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Posted: 04 January 2007 at 6:54am | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

In turns <20 I would expect the A10 to peg the T1 terrain's strength at 20 because it doesn't add a fixed number to the terrain's strength, it just makes the end result a strength of 20.

The A10 brings it to 20. But this is not a reoccuring event each turn. It happens, then the T1 adds one to that strength each turn. Yes, it can be argued, so determine how your group would play it. But, minimally, you decide what order the rules occur in, so the A10 would take place before the T1, so you would get 21 economy each turn.

The problem with the H5/T1 combo is that it is never discarded. It never reaches infinity. It causes a loop. So lets all agree that it cannot be done since the T1 does not have a duration. If we go with that, then we cannot use it on Maelstrom either.
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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 05 January 2007 at 2:55pm | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

Actually, you can still use it on the maelstrom with an end to said card because... The maelstrom would be played to a ship or base.  It would cause damage to the ship or base to infinity but the ship/base would eventually blow up therefore automatically discarding the maelstrom.
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Tarquon
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Posted: 06 January 2007 at 10:14pm | IP Logged Quote Tarquon

Shouldn't a card with a duration explicitly declare the duration, not have it
implied or derived from the condition of another card or actions of another
player?
1) what if the maelstrom is against a location this is/becomes immune to
hazards? I would expect a card that has a duration to have it regardless of
where it's played.
2) Does the M7 Ghost Fleet have a duration?
3) If it works on the maelstrom, could the H5 work on any card that
damages its location?
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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 07 January 2007 at 11:51am | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

I do not have a rulebook handy but... All cards are played to something. whether it is to the fleet, against a fleet, to a unit or to a location.  A Hazard card is usually played to a card.  In the rules, somewhere, if cards are played to or against a location and that location or unit is destroyed, the cards played to or against it are also discarded.  The Maelstrom hasno direct duration but the duration could be infinite if you could repair the unit it is played against equally.  Cards that say discard after use has a duration of one though it does not say one turn.

1) If you play the hazard against a location that is immune to hazards then you just wasted a card play and it is automatically discarded.  Not all cards have directly stated durations numberwise, but implied as until cancelled, destroyed or even stolen.

2) The M7 Ghost Fleet lasts no more than 7 turns, and the ships cannot not fire heavy weapons, since you cannot allocate points to them.  But the fleet loses 1 point each allocation phase and is there fore discarded when it reaches 0.

3) the Mealstrom increases each turn by another point of damage dealt. The H5 allows the H7 to repeatedly activate until its duration ends, so it continues to do damage to the unit until the unit is destroyed and per the rules all cards played to or against it are discarded as well unless a reaction card in someway prevents it. Eg a R/E2 Clown Car can transport 1 crew to another location thereby savings a crew off the unit being destryed. As for playing it on a card that says discarded after use( duration 1) we played that the h5 would only activate the card to it's duration of 1 and both would be discarded.

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Tarquon
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Posted: 07 January 2007 at 8:50pm | IP Logged Quote Tarquon

1) where to begin...
- A card played against a terrain immune to the effects of the card does
not void the card play. If that card is not discarded after use it stays in
play as it normally would - even though it may not be affecting the
terrain. I can imagine reasons for doing this, but it's probably not your
typical play.
- In my question, the card was in play against the H-immune terrain but
not necessarily played there. Stacks can be remade and I can't think of a
better place to put a maelstrom that wasn't mine.
- If played to a Maelstrom in play against such a terrain, the H5 would do
a great job making warp funnel cakes.
- You could argue that all cards have a duration or you could argue that a
card with a duration must have it stated as a finite number of turns. Turn
durations are typically marked by players in my group with dice that
decrement (not increment) and we usually only mark cards with a
duration greater than 1. If you are in the 'every card has a duration
camp', consider what would happen if the H5 were played on the C7
Collector.
- I don't recall any official ruling on the definition of duration. It would be
weird if the rule were stated as 'a card's duration expires when its
location is destroyed' or 'a card's duration lasts until its location is
destroyed'. Duration in the rulebook always seems to be associated with
a turn count. Most cards with an obvious duration declare a fixed turn
count or one dependent on the strength of the card.
- Q: If the Maelstrom has a duration, does H2 supersonic flow, H7
Sublight debris, M8 Tectonic marauder, R/M1 Sextaraan web crawlers or
C9 Marauder (with or without R/A7 Improved automaton)?

2) yes, OK, and if I play the H5 to it then I can take every ship of strength
7 or less from my discard pile (as long as I didn't play the H5 in the
allocation phase). Pretty nice combo for late in the game or after an
armageddon. (Also, I don't see a restriction that the ships can't move off
the ghost fleet during the next allocation phase.)

3) Well, I have to admit we haven't seen this - yet - in our group. But
depending on how this resolves the H5 may become a quite popular card.
I’m all for pushing the rules to the limit so this card may cause some fun!

(cards typically say something like 'lasts for one turn' which is not the
same duration as 'discarded after use'. I have some questions about the
execution of 'discarded after use', but that'll be another thread.)
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Gekonauak
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Posted: 08 January 2007 at 8:38am | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

The Accelerant should be played to a card that explicitly states a duration.

Ghost Fleet has an implied duration. It *CAN* last longer than 7 turns though, if you can increase its strength in some fashion. It cannot be healed.

If it works on the maelstrom, could the H5 work on any card that damages its location?

It shouldn't really work on the Maelstrom; but if you do allow it within your group (hell, we would have allowed it in a tournament), it would not work on other cards that damage its location. Take Planet Gouge for instance. If you allow Maelstrom to work in this fashion, to last until the card it is played against is discarded, that would allow it to work with Planet Gouge (and probably every card that does damage to another card).

If you play the hazard against a location that is immune to hazards then you just wasted a card play and it is automatically discarded.

Not so. it is a wasted card play, but the hazard card is *NOT* automatically discarded if the hazard has a duration, it stays in play for its duration.


Edited by Gekonauak on 08 January 2007 at 8:43am
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Gekonauak
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Posted: 08 January 2007 at 8:58am | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

- Q: If the Maelstrom has a duration, does H2 supersonic flow, H7 Sublight debris, M8 Tectonic marauder, R/M1 Sextaraan web crawlers or
C9 Marauder (with or without R/A7 Improved automaton)?


This is why Time Accelerant shouldn't work on the Maelstrom. The Maelstrom technically does not have a duration.

I don't see a restriction that the ships can't move off the ghost fleet during the next allocation phase.)

Hmmm, that is an oversight. We would have put that into an FAQ. THe ships should remain there for the duration of the Ghost Fleet and then are discarded.

3) Well, I have to admit we haven't seen this - yet - in our group. But depending on how this resolves the H5 may become a quite popular card. I’m all for pushing the rules to the limit so this card may cause some fun!

Which is why we would allow it in tournament play (although it is not legal).
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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 08 January 2007 at 2:10pm | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

Tarquon, You can't play the maelstrom against terrain....only ships and bases.
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Tarquon
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Posted: 08 January 2007 at 7:50pm | IP Logged Quote Tarquon

Sorry, I misread the card text of maelstrom. thanks for the clarification.

We'll consider the ghost fleet FAQed, so we'll have to find other ways to get
the ships to a different location.

thanks for the rulings & discussion. As usual, it's a great help and keeps the
game alive.
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Galactus
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Posted: 29 April 2007 at 12:36pm | IP Logged Quote Galactus

Here is another case where an ability card should not be a legal target once
played....how do you conceptually seperate the A10 from the Terrain it is
played on? It just does not follow. I can see tageting say an A4 Rifle that a
crew is holding...or an A6 Dragon Rider....but not something like A3 Eclipse
Position or A3 Solar Eclipse....do you see my point here?....? The concept of
an ability vs and attribute?
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