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korric
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 9:16pm | IP Logged
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What, exactly, defines exclusive technology? Obviously, anything that says "exclusive [empire] technology" qualifies, but what about equipment that specifies an empire in its application? For example, Phaser Magnifier Refit never mentions that it's exclusive tech or that it can only be played to a Scorpead ship, but it says, "Adds one magnifier point...to the Scorpead ship on which it is played".
Distribution nodes say, in Series 2, "Exclusive Mechad Technology", but in Universe, "May only be played to a Mechad Ship".
What am I looking for to determine if something is exclusive tech or not?
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Lobo
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| Posted: 10 July 2008 at 8:41am | IP Logged
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-The plain meaning of the Distribution Node card would seem to indicate that, when using Universe wording, you play to a mechad but can move via shuttle to use on any ship. Dunno if intended or not, but that seems to be the over-arcing problem, the terms were duplicated/changed and different words are often used to convey the same game term.
As to your particular question, i am sure Geko or someone else will give you the RAW answer, but i would treat anything that says "to the Scorpead ship"..."played to a mechad ship"...exclusive Clydon technology"...and the like as meaning the same general thing. You can only play, use and utilize that equipment on those ships absent an overriding card rule of "can use foreign/exclusive tech". Good luck, have a good one.....Lobo
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 10 July 2008 at 8:59am | IP Logged
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The Phaser Magnifier, while not exclusive, can only be played to a Scorpead ship.
While not explicitly saying it, like on other cards, it does state "to the Scorpead ship on which it is played."
Stating that you have to play it on a Scorpead ship to gain its benefits.
Poorly written. Did we update this card in Universe?
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 10 July 2008 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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Exclusive technology and "play only to" are not the same thing.
Exclusive technology may still be used by Vektrean, Bolaar, and Leopans, with use of adaptive technology.
Any card with the Empire's name in the title or any of the various played on or played to an Empire ship should probably have been restricted to that Empire's deck.
Who knows with the advent of the Allied Forces we probably would have allowed them to use these cards as well.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 10 July 2008 at 9:10am | IP Logged
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Lobo wrote:
| The plain meaning of the Distribution Node card would seem to indicate that, when using Universe wording, you play to a Mechad but can move via shuttle to use on any ship. |
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hahaha, no that was not intended. We probably forgot about the transport shuttle and the ability to move equipment around.
The game is inconsistant in its wording. We cleaned a LOT of it up in Universe, so always check to see if you have the Universe printing.
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korric
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| Posted: 12 July 2008 at 12:02pm | IP Logged
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So, if the Universe edition of the E9 Distribution Nodes says, "Can only be played to a Mechad ship", then they are no longer Mechad exclusive tech (earlier versions state "Mechad exclusive technology"), and cannot be used by Bolaar/Vektreans with an engineer?
I just looked, and the E5 Nodes from Universe are Mechad exclusive tech. The E9 Nodes, again, are not.
The phaser magnifiers I have are from universe as well, so am I correct in believing that Bolaar/Vektreans can't use these either?
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 12 July 2008 at 9:39pm | IP Logged
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korric wrote:
| So, if the Universe edition of the E9 Distribution Nodes says, "Can only be played to a Mechad ship", then they are no longer Mechad exclusive tech (earlier versions state "Mechad exclusive technology"), and cannot be used by Bolaar/Vektreans with an engineer? |
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Correct.
korric wrote:
| I just looked, and the E5 Nodes from Universe are Mechad exclusive tech. The E9 Nodes, again, are not. |
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The Primary version of all 3 Nodes said they were Exclusive Tech. In Universe the E1 & E9 were changed, but the E5 remained with the Primary wording. I'd consider the E5 to read exactly as the other two Universe do; it can only be played on a Mechad ship (note that the E9's text is copied directly from the E1, down to it saying that it only gives 1 extra node in the text, even though the E9 should say it gives 3 nodes).
I would also note that even though the Nodes specify they can only be played on Mechad ships I would allow them to be played on any Mechad Unit (the difference being that "Unit" includes the Mechad base from Galactic Invaders), as that would be in the full spirit of the rules.
korric wrote:
| The phaser magnifiers I have are from universe as well, so am I correct in believing that Bolaar/Vektreans can't use these either? |
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I would have to say that the Phaser Magnifier can only be played to a Scorpead ship. However, the E3 Hyperspace Detonator Refit can still be played on other ships, and the usual killer combo is to place a Detonator Refit and a E9 Future Ship on a Bolaar Battleship or Flagship - resulting in an insane amount of Detonator damage (8 or 9 Phasers, doubled to 16 or 18, then multiplied by 6 or 5 Detonators for a total of 96 or 90 Detonator damage). A real 3 card killer combo.
Edited by ericbsmith on 13 July 2008 at 2:06am
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Eric B. Smith
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 14 July 2008 at 9:23am | IP Logged
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ericbsmith wrote:
korric wrote:
| I just looked, and the E5 Nodes from Universe are Mechad exclusive tech. The E9 Nodes, again, are not. |
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The Primary version of all 3 Nodes said they were Exclusive Tech. In Universe the E1 & E9 were changed, but the E5 remained with the Primary wording. I'd consider the E5 to read exactly as the other two Universe do; it can only be played on a Mechad ship (note that the E9's text is copied directly from the E1, down to it saying that it only gives 1 extra node in the text, even though the E9 should say it gives 3 nodes).I would also note that even though the Nodes specify they can only be played on Mechad ships I would allow them to be played on any Mechad Unit (the difference being that "Unit" includes the Mechad base from Galactic Invaders), as that would be in the full spirit of the rules. |
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What Eric said.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 14 July 2008 at 4:36pm | IP Logged
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ericbsmith wrote:
I would have to say that the Phaser Magnifier can
only be played to a Scorpead ship. |
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Which is exactly why I combine an S8 ship of the ancients with a mag refit
and a comet of lore in my scorpy deck... The comet pays to engage the
Ancient, the mag refit goes on the biggest scorpy ship I have in play, and
then is shared with the Ancient by the ability of the comet of lore.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 14 July 2008 at 5:03pm | IP Logged
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While it can only be played to a scorpead ship, it can later be moved and used at a later time; providing you have the means to move it.
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 15 July 2008 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
| While it can only be played to a scorpead ship, it can later be moved and used at a later time; providing you have the means to move it. |
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The problem is the cards which state "can only be used on X ships" generally just don't work well at all if you transfer them to another ship. The Phaser Magnifier Refit gives +1 to the _multiplier_ of an existing phaser magnifier. If the ship doesn't already have a Phaser magnifier there's nothing to give the +1 to - in which case the ship would now acquire a multiplier of x1, which does it no good. Even if you somehow rule it gives a multiplier of x2, you'd still be a hundred times better off playing a Comet of Lore and getting the +1 to the multiplier on a Scorpead ship, then applying the magnifier to two ships.
If a ship somehow acquires Nodes and Shields you then have the ugly question of which gets damaged first - and since Nodes need to be re-energized every turn the answer is automatically different depending if you're the attacker or defender in this case.
I'd like to say that cards which can only be played to an EMPIRE unit only function when on a unit of that EMPIRE... but then you have the EMPIRE Fighters, so things are just a mess.
Edited by ericbsmith on 15 July 2008 at 7:59am
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Eric B. Smith
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 15 July 2008 at 8:57am | IP Logged
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ericbsmith wrote:
If a ship somehow acquires Nodes and Shields you then have the ugly question of which gets damaged first - and since Nodes need to be re-energized every turn the answer is automatically different depending if you're the attacker or defender in this case.
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I actually think there is a rule somewhere stating that no ship can have both nodes and shields.
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 15 July 2008 at 9:11am | IP Logged
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Under the EMF:
- Shield refits may not be applied to Mechad ships.
The rule states that no Mechad ship can have a Shield Refit played to it... which says nothing of what happens if a non-Mechad ship acquires a Node through equipment transfer.
Edited by ericbsmith on 15 July 2008 at 9:12am
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Eric B. Smith
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 15 July 2008 at 10:34pm | IP Logged
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Don't empire fighters say on them "played to a ______ ship"? Wouldn't that
mean then they couldn't be played to a non-empire ship?
Would they be playable to an Allied ship?
And what about the shields on empire fighters, do they block weapons
damage done to the ship they're applied to? If they don't, why do they
even have shields at all?
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ericbsmith
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| Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:59am | IP Logged
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MogwaiSC wrote:
| Don't empire fighters say on them "played to a ______ ship"? |
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Yes.
MogwaiSC wrote:
| Wouldn't that mean then they couldn't be played to a non-empire ship? |
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Correct. However, nothing stops the Empire Fighters from moving to another location during the Play Cards Phases.
MogwaiSC wrote:
| Would they be playable to an Allied ship? |
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No. They can only be played to a ship of the empire that's listed.
MogwaiSC wrote:
And what about the shields on empire fighters, do they block weapons
damage done to the ship they're applied to? If they don't, why do they
even have shields at all? |
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They don't block damage to the location they're played to. A Free Flying Shuttle/Fighter is a legitimate target during the Weapons Fire phase; see Standard Targets. They have shields to protect themselves during such an attack.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 16 July 2008 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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ericbsmith wrote:
If a ship somehow acquires Nodes and Shields you then have the ugly question of which gets damaged first - and since Nodes need to be re-energized every turn the answer is automatically different depending if you're the attacker or defender in this case. |
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Well, the defender should choose how the damage is applied. [EDITOR'S NOTE: This is wrong. I've decided not to delete the post, but I do want anyone reading it to know that 7 points actually splash through and damage the ship]
For example, I fire 6 phasers and 3 heavy weapons at your ship, and you react by playing a R/T2 Asteroid Shield.
You apply the phasers to the asteroid shield, then the heavy weapons, destroying the asteroid shield, and then one damage point splashing through to damage the ship.
Edited by Gekonauak on 17 July 2008 at 10:52am
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 16 July 2008 at 1:47pm | IP Logged
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In the rulebook universe edition 2.0 it says that cards that are played to ... may be moved later.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:40pm | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
ericbsmith wrote:
If a ship somehow acquires Nodes and Shields you then have the ugly
question of which gets damaged first - and since Nodes need to be re-
energized every turn the answer is automatically different depending if
you're the attacker or defender in this case. |
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Well, the defender should choose how the damage is applied.
For example, I fire 6 phasers and 3 heavy weapons at your ship, and
you react by playing a R/T2 Asteroid Shield.
You apply the phasers to the asteroid shield, then the heavy weapons,
destroying the asteroid shield, and then one damage point splashing
through to damage the ship. |
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Whoa... hold on there pardner... You're contracting what you said in the
thread on applying weapons damage;
Gekonauak wrote:
Mandor wrote:
When a volley is fired, who determines which damage
type is applied to the shields and which damage type is applied to the
structure? |
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The firing player decides.
What Galaktische said: I fire a mix of weapons at your ship, and you
respond by playing a R/T2 Asteroid Shield. If you decided, you would
apply all of the phaser fire first (negating it), and then the heavy
weapons. I decided, therefore only two points of heavy weapons are
used on the Asteroid Shield.
Another point... I don't have to decide how they are being used before
you react, just how they are applied afterwards.
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It can't be both ways.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged
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Well, at least somebody is paying attention. (I know its not me).
I was right, at least one of the times. ;)
I believe I was right when I said the attacker decides.
7 points would actually splash through.
Anyone else that plays on a more regular basis that wants to support that, feel free to step up.
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Galaktische
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:50am | IP Logged
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Lobo and I play the Asteroid shield to absorb the minimum damage possible. In other words, the 2 heavy weapon points get applied first and the rest of the damage carries through.
J--
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged
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From the rulebook:
SPLASH DAMAGE: Splash damage may only occur when a player plays a card in reaction to weapons fire at a target that the reaction card would protect. If there is sufficient damage to destroy the reaction card then it is destroyed and then the remaining damage is applied to the original target.
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
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Asteroid shields have two purposes. 1) to keep a ship alive, prevents 2 points of damage. 2) to prevent large amounts of phaser fire. Works very well against many of the Indirigian ship and others that may fire thier phasers as a react. Of course since you would be the firing player during your weapons phase, the R/T2 would be a card play.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:11pm | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
... 2) to prevent large amounts of phaser fire.
Works very well against many of the Indirigian ship and others that may
fire thier phasers as a react. |
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This sounds fine, it would stop all phasers fired in reaction, but what about
the case of a Zed ship with Detonium bolts? Example, I've got an S9 Zed
battleship out with a Phaser Bolt System on it, which allows me to fire my
phasers in reaction? Detonium bolts get to fire in reaction anyway. You
fire at me, I fire back with both phasers and heavy weapons, you play an
asteroid shield. Seems to me the asteroid shield stops two points of heavy
weapons, but the rest, including the phasers, goes on your ship.
Edited by MogwaiSC on 17 July 2008 at 5:12pm
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Lobo
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 6:21pm | IP Logged
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-In the above example (and maybe i am not clearly seeing the example for what it is) player A is the Zed Player and player B is a Mechad player.
Player B declares volley against ship of Player A.
Player A fires in reaction.
Player B plays asteroid shield, stopping two heavy weapons and the rest get through assuming the heavy weapons were part of the reactionary volley.
Resolve fire on both ships accordingly.
That works. Now, if you targeted a ship, they played an asteroid shield and you then reacted with those same "can fire in reaction" phasers that wouldn't work since the ship would be the target of two separate volleys. But the above example shows how i would interpret it.....Lobo
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 18 July 2008 at 4:39am | IP Logged
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A Zedan phaser bolt system is an E6.
I'd like to have an R/E3 Phaser bolt system that is discarded after use, and
an E9 phaser bolt system that can fire in reaction twice. :D
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Eaglepreacher
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| Posted: 19 July 2008 at 1:23pm | IP Logged
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UH yeah... hence why I said large amounts of PHASER damage. Plus some people, especially in multi player games, are cautious. Sure you can fire ALL your S9 zedan weapons back at me in reaction. But woulod you still do that if all I had was a S3. Your reactionary weapons can only fire once per turn, not each player turn. Of course that is one of the arguments.... So in a 5 player game would you still fire ALL your weapons or would you declare enough just to kill the ship? Many would declare enough to kill the ship. If you choose enough to kill the ship, then if you did not declare hvy weapons the shield stops all damage, if you did declare hvy weapons then it still keeps the ship alive.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 24 July 2008 at 11:55pm | IP Logged
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Eaglepreacher wrote:
UH yeah... hence why I said large amounts of
PHASER damage. Plus some people, especially in multi player games,
are cautious. Sure you can fire ALL your S9 zedan weapons back at me
in reaction. But woulod you still do that if all I had was a S3. Your
reactionary weapons can only fire once per turn, not each player turn.
Of course that is one of the arguments.... So in a 5 player game would
you still fire ALL your weapons or would you declare enough just to kill
the ship? Many would declare enough to kill the ship. If you choose
enough to kill the ship, then if you did not declare hvy weapons the
shield stops all damage, if you did declare hvy weapons then it still
keeps the ship alive. |
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This isn't really relevant to the issue being discussed. Certainly a
multiplayer game will have a different dynamic, but how does that
change the way the rules will work?
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Galactic Empires : Deck Construction and Strategy
Topic: exclusive tech
