Galactic Empires: GE’s possible rebirth

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Marhault
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 9:30am \| IP Logged

In case it is not yet known, I have been looking into acquiring the rights to the original GE Card Game. Since the bankruptcy of CompanionGames, the rights to the actual card game has either been sold at an auction or given to a past creditor. I have been in contact with the Albany Bankruptcy court and about 4 of his creditors and the lawyers for each are scouring their records to determine where those rights might have ended up.

The idea of acquiring the game rights would be for the possibility of reviving the game for a wider audience and streamlining some of the more complex points of the game. There was, and continues to be, a dedicated following for the game and a revival could bring back a sorely missed aspect of CCG - science fiction. With its unique game mechanics and concept of play, GE has much potential and the creation of a v3 of the rules would be able to put to bed many of the aspects that have been left in limbo since the discontinuation of the game and conceptual storyline.

There are many possible ideas, changes, and new concepts that could be applied to the game to increase versatility and settle rules disputes on a more official level. The question will come down to how much of the game everyone would like to see changed and how much should remain, should I acquire these rights.

I would love to hear the first and forehand thoughts you might have to this.

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Lobo
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:23am \| IP Logged

-I will respond to this general idea in more detail should anyone *actually* pick up the IP of the game. In short, though, i will not recognize nor play any update to the game that holds as its creator and savior a single individual. If a group isn't involved from the get-go in terms of LLC officers, financial backers, etc. it isn't serious enough for me to invest my time and money in. Business plans, market projections, rules committees, etc. would need to be in place before bringing anything to the masses. And by masses, i mean the twelve of us here on the boards.

I say this not in anger, not to be negative, nor any other desire to be a poopy-head. I only say this to make sure whoever thinks they may try for the IP knows what the hell they're getting into. Good luck with it, i truly hope you do well in your venture.....Lobo

Biegel
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:14am \| IP Logged

I was looking into aquiring the copyright to this game in order to bring it back. I have connections in the printing industry who insist that before they endorse me I must gain control so as not to be bombarded by a slew of law suits. As I have looked into the laws Governing Copyright Law I have found that there is an Abandonment Statute that may come into play soon. The problem is that everyone chasing the rights may stay the claim where as not persueing it may lead the owner to lose it to simple resurrection clauses. There are laws that state that a copyright must be refiled from time to time if it becomes inactive. The Game could actualy end up in Public Domain. Some Artists have filed Their own copyright on their indivdual art but that does not mean the cards their art is on can not be reproduced only their art is protected. That could be negotated with them. As for non profit use the law is very liberal in what can be done with this game. It is the monetary gain asspect that is frowned on. I personaly enjoy this as a hobby but if it be came a make money thing would as most people here soon lose interest.

Marhault
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:32am \| IP Logged

I know exactly what you are saying Lobo. Even before considering this, i spoke with some of the heavier players like George Stewart and Harry Dangro as well as tried to get as much opinion beforehand. With my introduction into the game and I found it to be a fun and intriguing game. There are several issues that seem to be sticking points and this game has the potentiality for so much more. Obviously, if there is someone who would feel they could do better, I would gladly step aside and let them work on the acquisition.

I know Biegal that quite a few have tried for it. There was rumor that the rights were auctioned off and owned by someone in the midwest just to "sit on them". In the end, I want to do this less about money and more about bringing a game which I think has a multitude of possibilities into fruition. A good idea you brought up is checking with the patent office into seeing who might hold that patent now.

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RobPro
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:43am \| IP Logged

Marhault, are you werewolf?

Marhault
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:49am \| IP Logged

No, I am not werewolf. I am someone who has the means to acquire the copyright, and investors who are willing to help in getting it started should I acquire them. In fact, this is my first day on the forum. I assume werewolf is one of the people with whom I play this game every weekend.

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Biegel
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 1:24pm \| IP Logged

I have a interest in reviving the game that is selfish. I have over a million cards. I was informed that if the game is re-established the origanal cards will become highly collectable as reproducing them as they first were made is highly unlikely. Even if you had the origanal plates the inks are hard to duplicate as can be seen just from one printing to the next. As for me personaly aquiring the rights I will continue to look into it. I personaly don't care who gets the rights but that someone furthers the game. Yes there is money to be made by printing the cards agin and yes it would be a major endevor. Personaly I would approach everyone connected with this site and offer them stock for free in the company. I would attempt to hire everyone that had former association with the origanal company ( not the printers) I have my own. I have paperwork from the origanal head office that lists distributers and alot of information pertaining to how it was run. I did buy the contents of the office after a judge ordered it vacated for non payment of rent and ordered the disposal of goods stored there. By the way it is a Copyright not a Patent Two different ball parks

werewolflht65
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 9:40pm \| IP Logged

No, Marhault isn't me. He is however a good friend of mine, and Bob and Ryan both met him at my last monthly get-together.

Besides, I'm not as eloquent in my type-speak as he is... ;)

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Biegel
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Posted: 22 December 2007 at 3:20am \| IP Logged

Welcome to the Funny Farm Marhault, Good to have you on board. There are few really interested folks contributing here, so any new blood is good blood. It is good to hear there is someone else that is interested in reviving the game for what ever reason. I think you will enjoy the banter that comes forth from these pages as there are many interesting Sci Fi ers here. So a long over due Howdy and its Good that your not Wolfie ,We (This site already has one) and he is all we need. (With humble apolligy to wolf)You know we need one and only one of each of us. No Cloning Allowed Read the Dam Card Well Merry Christmas , Happy holliday Now Get Ready to Rumble

werewolflht65
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Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:20pm \| IP Logged

Lobo wrote:

Why? This forum of rules-lawyering gamer snobs is the LAST place I would go to for a rebirth of this game. I wouldn't consult with a single one of you if it were up to me.
I would take the Verc ball, of complete game mechanic re-write, and run it in for a touch down.
I'd hire an excellent sales and marketing team, to target the former CCGers who like Sci Fi over Fantasy, and leave the old timers to stew in their own fetid, gut wrenching rules debate pool.

Think what you want about me, but there has only been a few, and I do emphasize the word FEW, interesting ideas that would receive special consideration should this game be revived.

As to the rest of you, if you still want to play with your outdated GE cards, you can play your way, and completely ignore the new game, and live in your own little gamer pocket dimension.

GE needs a complete redo to be successful. Period.

Edited by werewolflht65 on 22 December 2007 at 12:23pm

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Lobo
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Posted: 23 December 2007 at 4:00pm \| IP Logged

-Wolf, i like you but you can't read. I didn't say he/she had to involve us at all in the process, creation, rebirth, anything. All i said that involved us "snobs" (yeah, 'cause i fit that description so well) was this part; bringing it to the masses that would be interested in a rebirth are the twelve or so of us that still play. I'm not saying no one else would be interested, but it wouldn't be a *bad* idea to run it by the target audience at least in passing.

I should have known better than to respond to this.....Lobo

werewolflht65
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Posted: 23 December 2007 at 4:37pm \| IP Logged

No, normal discussion is good for the heart. Screaming rules arguments lead to strokes.
:)

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Biegel
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 4:32am \| IP Logged

As for a target audeance I have been running this game by teenagers for the last 12 years. I have given out decks to anyone who showed a true interest.This was an adverage of 200 cards per. I asked them to construct 50-75 card decks based on their understanding of the rules. Most of them actualy created semi playable decks and enjoyed doing it. I gave them E-bay as a way to persue more cards. About 10% actualy are still collecting and learning and I see them occassionaly buying on the net.Most have them collecting dust. I figure marketing will be the key to actualy reviving the game. I had an actor friend that I had try to run the idea by George Lucas. As I was removed from that address and lost his I have not recieved any input (I was actualy hoping to get him to invest)Now he has the means I mean, Which is how I see as the only hope to resurect this game(Someone with clout) I have a few western conections but no one like this guy who actualy knew him. Now we need someone on this site with lots of Hootspa. Wolf how about riding by the Palms and gate crashing in on George Bring your cards I know you could do it. Just Joking BUT If The Feeling Strikes ya

Edited by Biegel on 24 December 2007 at 4:35am

Drakmoore
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 4:37am \| IP Logged

If thats the way you feel werewolf then DON'T buy the game. Make a new game that fits your liking, invest and create that. Leave GE alone to the people that actually want to see it revived as GE, because why waist you time on a complete overhaul if you could do "better" at making a game yourself. You would save money on a copy rite as you would only have to make a new one and you could base it on your own book universe or create a new one of your own. If you want to make a new game do so! I hardly think the CCG market is cornered, there is plenty of room for all sorts of games, but leave GE the way it is because in the end without the same rules, cards, or style its not GE and you will lose the whole previous fan base(which is mostly people on this site) anyhow.

Biegel
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 5:54am \| IP Logged

Amen to game change! Straighten up the few serious problems and let the Ball roll. This game has kept a following this long. I agin reiterate there are alot more followers than just on this site. Maybe the site needs to be made more user friendly. Not everyone is as computer literate as most everyone here. I got a sexy Moma that never touched one till I put one in front of her and told have at it, I'd fix anything she screwed up. (Oh boy what a mistake) Actually I think if more fundementals were dissussed, Simple Game rules, Simple deck design, ect. we would get more interest. You are talking all veterans here and alot of it is Greek to newcomers. I think everyone with the noall should create a simple dialoge for the new comer. Maybe a different person, different topic every few days or every week.

Edited by Biegel on 24 December 2007 at 5:57am

werewolflht65
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 6:46am \| IP Logged

If GE were still in production, changing the game mechanic would alienate the current group of players in such a way as Apple did to its loyal following back in the 80's (Anyone who knows about that, knows that a lot of Apple faithful suddenly became PC types)

But GE is a DEAD game. Save for Cav's card sales on eBay, there is ZERO market for the cards. If the 12 or so people on this list got alienated by a complete redo of the game, to fix and streamline play to make it as playable as that other famous CCG, hit the road, Jack.
We don't want you or need you.

Now, if this were a huge board, with over a thousand active posters or more, then yeah, we'd try to incorporate new rules suggestions and tweak existing issues to try to maintain familiar playability so as not to lose that base.

But it's not. Let me name off a few of you, so i can show you why keeping it the same is bad for business:
Geko
Eagle
Mogwai
Drakmoore
Biegel
Eric
Matchbox
Rob
Galactus
Galaktische
Aramax
Bignea

Ok, these are the big posters and active participants. Not counting myself, Verc, Marhault and Super Jew, who will all be part of the revival, why would I want to cater a game to 15 people?

Are 15 people going to buy enough cards to make it a successful revival?
I seriously doubt. According to financial records Marhault obtained from the printer in NY, when everything was said and done at the bankruptcy, the printer was still owed $234,000 dollars.

$234,000(!!!) Now, lets take that number, add in the $75,000 or so they managed to get out of inventory auctions, and then round it off to the nearest thousand, and call it a net worth of $300,000.

Now, lets divide that by 15 people.

Hmm, according to my calculator, that works out to $20,000 per person.
Now, I know Marhault has that kind of money, and if Verc tapped out his trust, he could maybe make the 20K figure.

But Aramax can't. Drakmoore couldn't either. And neither could I. I know these things because I know these people, and I see what they have as assets and where/how they live.

Super Jew might be able to get a loan from his mom and pop, but I doubt it. His pop is a well to do accountant, and thus understands the value of any business.

As for the rest of you named, are you willing to put up $20k+ to keep your precious GE the same? And if so, where were you 10 years ago when the company was tanking?

Like I said before, it's a complete redesign or nothing at all. And staying as it is is not acceptable to making a comeback.

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RobPro
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 2:13pm \| IP Logged

10 years ago I was eleven years old.

Only 2 posters on these boards seem to agree with a complete redesign, out of the sixteen you listed.

You're basing all your statements off -zero- market research. You don't know what will or won't sell; you don't know what people are looking for in a CCG.

You don't even own this game, yet you're acting like you do. The people here are a huge resource for what works well and what doesn't in terms of the game mechanics. This would be a great place to playtest rules changes and get everything settled before any major releases... but you say you'd rather alienate us.

So why do you even post here if you don't care about what anybody here says?

Drakmoore
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 3:16pm \| IP Logged

Yeah, but why go to all the trouble to buy a license for a game that only 15 people still play? Just make a new one and leave GE be. What does it matter what universe its in? Just make your own card game, you don't like the rules, you don't like the cards or art, and you apparently don't give a sh*t about the player base. Why then would you buy a game that no one knows about for significantly more then it would take to make your own game? Basically your telling us you want to buy GE and get the license so you can turn it into a different game just to spite the people that actually like it the way it is.

Plus you will be PAYING EXTRA MONEY TO BUY A GAME THAT YOUR GOING TO MAKE INTO A NEW GAME! Just freaking make a NEW game of your OWN design if you like NOTHING about GE......OR are you not creative enough? I mean I thought you were an author, why do you need GE to have a base for a card game your going to basically start from scratch with? Can't you think of something better? Can't you find a smoother way to run everything? Hell you even claim one of YOUR races is a base for a GE race, so why even touch GE to begin with?

Its not a revival if its not the same game! That would be like saying, I'm gonna "fix" your old rusty bike and by "fix" I mean make it into a minivan by throwing out the bike and buying a minivan! They aren't the same thing no matter what you do so why try to make it into something different? Just make your OWN game, maybe some of us will even try it and you could ask for ideas or whatever, but leave GE alone its fine dead, but if it ever comes back it shouldn't be a different game.

Edited by Drakmoore on 24 December 2007 at 3:17pm

Biegel
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 5:35pm \| IP Logged

A Dead Game? I guess all the people I know who aren't on this site should be informed. Maybe they will sell me their cards cheap. Gezz maybe I would even pay shipping. But if you think the game is dead I will give up my via to revive it. Want to buy a million cards?

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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 7:22pm \| IP Logged

Biegel, you should get your friends on here and have them post their decks. We could really get some good discussions going.

Biegel
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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 8:05pm \| IP Logged

I have tryed to make the point . Not everyone who plays this game knows computers. I was in NY over a year before I could get high speed internet in my area. 12 years ago computers were in their infancey. I had an old apple I got from a Rock Memorobeila Dealer who was out of the city hurting for money cause he didn't know how to survive in the country.Before that I had not used a computer since the 60's. Can you imagine that. I was in JH in electronics class messing with IBM . Yes Geko I am missing the K on my computer. I don't see as well as you young bucks. I think that everyone here misses the fact that us Sci Fi nerds come in all sizes( just like the races in GE) I used Word processors for 20 years to write contracts in construction. Then one day I slipped through the Universe to land in the Alien land of Az. Alone I needed a roomate to live in the style I was acustom to. I took in a 62 year old Computer Geek and Wala i got a computer. He actualy was TV , Sterio Geek who lost every thing to Enron fom Scottsdale Az.-origanaly from Jersy I sold antiques he sold refurbished computers. I actualy learned what I know of computers from him. Now there are alot of generations that follow this game. not just the 40 plus and the 20 plus. There are Japaness, Chinise, Italans, Dutch I have not seen a part of the world where this game didn't make an inpression Don't forget the Aussies and English. Alot of these people do not have the internet as we know it. They have coffee shops where you pay to use their computers in alot of the world. Having touched the third world personaly I can tell you not everyone has it this good. Kittyhawk 71- 73 Richard Nixion Watergate the whole line I was there. Hey I was 14 at Woodstock What a trip

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Posted: 24 December 2007 at 8:59pm \| IP Logged

Well, the Internet's really the only (cheap) way we have to get in contact with these play groups. It'd be neat to have GE people from every country on here, giving their feedback.

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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 4:00am \| IP Logged

Personally, I don't care much if GE is reborn, reformed, or stays dead. However, I do find it odd the way you're talking of bringing GE back Wolf. If you were to buy GE there's essentially 3 components to the game:
1) The rules themselves
2) The story (galaxy) background
3) The artwork

The artwork is right out - you'd have to reacquire the rights to it all over again from dozens of artists, and it'd be almost easier and cheaper to just start with all new artwork.

The rules - well, you've already said you plan on changing everything. If you're going to go that far, I don't see the point in acquiring the rules only to give them a complete rewrite. If the game were still alive & well, rewriting the rules might be a good idea. But as it is, you'd be better off starting from scratch.

The story background, while interesting, is far from being really unique. The basics (a galaxy with dozens of different races duking it out) can easily be redone. The details, the specifics of the different races, aren't different enough that they couldn't be re-imagined. It's certainly not worth the money just to acquire the rights to the the story background.

Personally, as much as I love GE, if I were going to seriously pursue a science-fiction CCG I'd start from scratch. Take the lessons learned from GE and improve on the concept. GE had many flaws, the greatest of which I think was just it's raw complexity (especially the deck stocking rules and increasing number of playing structures - the Time Origin, Cyberspace, etc.). But it had many good points too, such as it's concept of drawing/playing cards which was (and largely still is) unique from other CCGs.

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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 6:34am \| IP Logged

Eric and Drak both make very valid points. But, we who are the faithful still largely want GE back.
The races, the ships, the various categories of cards. We want all that to stay.
What we really want to do is fix the game mechanic that made the game more complex then it needed to be.

If the turn sequence had been more complex, it would have been more closely tied to a CCG Version of Star Fleet Battles. As it stands, it's more complex then Magic, which turned off a lot of potential players.

When you have to do math in your head, or keep track of points on a play mat, that says a lot about the complexity of a card game.

I personally want to see the rules made as simple to understand as Magic.
Untap, Upkeep, Draw etc.

GE had its version of those phases with Allocate, Engage etc. But that whole need these points to do this thing and these other points to do that other thing... It's just too much math for a smooth flow.

I'll let Verc explain what the plan is, since while I'm privy to the whole concept for what the new game would look like, I'm a little bit foggy on the exactness of what it will be.

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Biegel
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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 6:42am \| IP Logged

Actualy one of the main pluses to gaining the rights to GE is that you gain the right to use the card art. You also gain the right to use the GE logo,Storyline ,Game rules, and the print on the cards (Card Rules) If one was to abandon any of it you would have a new Game that plagerizied the origanal. You could also gain any unsettled debt that might still be in litgation, though I think the act of the Bankruptsy took care of all of that. As I said if I or any one else aquire the rights I would not alter any thing accept to clarify the Rules and make sure their was a Guide with diffenitions, misconceptions and the various descrepancies I see discussed here. As for the Promo's I believe these people would maintain what ever contract they had with GE and might still be able to reproduce their cards. We would look into it.Need a Leagal Beagle for that. As for hiring help to reorganize and help promote GE who better than those from this site and former employees. Not every idea that came forth would be fesiable but what a pool of thought has come forth upon these pages. I would further attempt to persue the plans that were in the works and create the races that would further the game. I would reprint in limited edition very rare or useful cards that everyone seeks. They would pale in value to the cards everyone all ready have. Origanal/vs/ Reproduction

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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 6:57am \| IP Logged

Biegel wrote:

Actualy one of the main pluses to gaining the rights to GE is that you gain the right to use the card art.

No, you don't. From what Geko has said, the rights of most of the artwork reverted to the artists, meaning you'd have to either reattain the rights to the artwork or get new artwork. Given the time & trouble, it'd be easier to just get new artwork.

Biegel wrote:

You also gain the right to use the GE logo,Storyline ,Game rules, and the print on the cards (Card Rules)

Largely true. However, the logo is worthless and the storyline isn't a major asset (it was, overall, fairly generic and could easily be recreated using a new original storyline). The rules, while they had many unique features, were overcomplicated.

Biegel wrote:

You could also gain any unsettled debt

No, you wouldn't. The bankruptcy dealt with the debt. The copyright was one of the assets sold off to pay down part of the debt owed to the debtors. *IF* you can attain the copyright you'd own it lock, stock, and barrel and could use it freely without fear of litigation or debtors coming back at you.

Biegel wrote:

As I said if I or any one else aquire the rights I would not alter any thing accept to clarify the Rules and make sure their was a Guide with diffenitions,

While I would love to see GE come back, I just don't see it happening. It would be far easier, and possibly cheaper, to just start from scratch and create a new game with some of the same concepts as GE. You'd have to be careful not to step on the copyright of GE (and Magic, and all the other CCGs out there), but designing a game from the ground up would allow you to do it more cleanly.

Edited by ericbsmith on 25 December 2007 at 6:57am

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RobPro
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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 8:59am \| IP Logged

Wolf, when you say "we," you mean yourself and maybe 1-2 others. Don't think YOU are the majority in your way of thinking.

werewolflht65
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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 12:58pm \| IP Logged

I know exactly who I am referencing. Just play your game the way you are used to. When and if a new version comes along, you can feel free to get involved or pass it by.

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Biegel
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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 3:00pm \| IP Logged

I beg to differ with anyone who thinks that the artists retain the rights of any art the company actualy paid . Yes the unpaid artists that filed copyright could put a damper on useing their card art. The returning of rights tothe artists simply alow the artist to resell the pictures comercialy. As very few artists actualy filed independently most of the art is up for grabs. In my legal research I have found that only Melesia Benson is listed in the Copyright office as having done her own. If you go online to the Copyright office you will eventualy find the filings as I did. As for the debt and not being a lawyer I wasn't sure how that would work so That was the reason for my statement. As for rekindling the fires of GE I wait inpatiantly for the reborn to appear and rear its ugly Dragon head and sear the butts of all you sooth sayers. Na Na Nu Na NA!!! MMMMMMerry CCCCHRISTMAS ro All and ro all a good Darkened period of sleep time. Time to leave warp mostspaceman Biegel

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Posted: 25 December 2007 at 6:29pm \| IP Logged

Biegel wrote:

I beg to differ with anyone who thinks that the artists retain the rights of any art the company actualy paid.

The copyright of most of the artwork was retained by the original artists - just look under the cards; they're Copyright such-and-such an artist, not Copyright Companion Games. As such, the original artist retains the rights to that image, and to use it again would likely require reacquiring the rights to the images (though there *MAY* be a right to reprint the artwork as part of the game, but such a clause may have had a sunset built in, and who retains that right to reprint may be difficult to establish, and it may not belong to the person who bought the copyright to the game itself). This is the domain of lawyers, and not something you should take lightly, nor make sweeping statements about as you did above.

Biegel wrote:

As very few artists actualy filed independently most of the art is up for grabs.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, copyright does *NOT* require that the copyright holder to actually register their work. Simply creating something original is enough to qualify for copyright protection; the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic. Registering copyrights has some benefits (not the least of which is prima facia evidence that the copyright actually belongs to the creator), but registration is not necessary to keep and maintain your copyright. And copyright lasts for an ungodly long period of time in the U.S. (IIRC life of the artist + 70 years or some-such).

Use the original artwork at your own risk.

__________________
Eric B. Smith
GE Card Museum

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