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Blacklassie
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| Posted: 24 October 2009 at 1:02pm | IP Logged
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The Card Reads:
As a reaction, may fire phasers at target firing at this unit.
Shuttles on carriers have their phasers rearmed during the engagement phase.
The question is: Can this ship react every player turn or does it react once per complete player round? Also, do the shuttle phasers react also by being on the ship?
Good Day.......Dan
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Matchbox
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| Posted: 24 October 2009 at 4:32pm | IP Logged
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i beleive its everytime someone fires at you. so if two ships fire at you from one opponent, you can split your phasers back at them. and seeing as its a level 10, you should be able to fire them every player turn.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 26 October 2009 at 11:27pm | IP Logged
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We've always played that its per complete turn. You only get to fire in
reaction once.
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Matchbox
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| Posted: 27 October 2009 at 2:44pm | IP Logged
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hmm ill have to ask the people in my group. i thought it was every player trun, cuz i remember being afraid to fire at it sometimes lol. even when i knew it was used.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 24 November 2009 at 2:19am | IP Logged
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Matchbox wrote:
hmm ill have to ask the people in my group. i thought
it was every player trun, cuz i remember being afraid to fire at it
sometimes lol. even when i knew it was used. |
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That would make it WAY too powerful... broken in my opinion. If you want
to be able to fire your phasers in reaction more than once per complete
turn you need to use E4 and E8 multipurpose phasers, and cards that let
you recycle those cards.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 13 January 2010 at 2:37pm | IP Logged
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This ship can fire its phasers each time it is targetted by opponent weapons fire. This would include each player turn.
The shuttles do not have that luxury, and can only fire once per complete turn.
Edited by Gekonauak on 13 January 2010 at 2:38pm
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 15 January 2010 at 7:43pm | IP Logged
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Gekonauak wrote:
This ship can fire its phasers each time it is
targetted by opponent weapons fire. This would include each player turn.
The shuttles do not have that luxury, and can only fire once per complete
turn. |
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Is there something in the rulebook or GF about this?
I think that makes it WAY too powerful. As I said, it makes it broken.
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 18 January 2010 at 6:31am | IP Logged
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I'm pretty sure the standard reaction card rules cover it:
http://galacticempires.no-ip.org/ge/GErulesv21.html#PlayingR eactionCards
Yes, it is WAY powerful. Some entity cards are.
It is only a problem if you fire weapons at it.
So, take it out with something else.
Think of "As a reaction" as being played from your hand. You can use the ability anytime the if/then statement is satisfied.
Edited by Gekonauak on 18 January 2010 at 6:36am
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 18 January 2010 at 7:40pm | IP Logged
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Problem is, there are A LOT of Indirigan ships, not just 10's, and
equipment cards such as E8 Multipurpose Phasers and the E6 for Zedan
that would also fall under this rule.
The other thing, is that strictly speaking, the ship firing in reaction is a
card action, not a reaction card play. Aren't card actions in general limited
to once per turn unless they have some sort of global qualifier like "Is
Immune" or something like that?
If such ships get to fire in return each and every time they are fired upon,
I'm going to build a LOT more reaction phasers into my Bolaar deck.
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RobPro
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| Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:18pm | IP Logged
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We've always played it that a ship with reactionary phasers can shoot them each time it is targeted and split its volley against any/all of the units firing at it.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 19 January 2010 at 1:03am | IP Logged
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If that is the general consensus, my group and I will have to talk about it.
It will definitely change the dynamic of how we play GE. I'm willing to go
with the ruling, after all, it's variety that makes things interesting, isn't it?
It still seems too powerful to me.
Time to use all of the phaser bolt systems and multipurpose phasers I
have... :o
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 19 January 2010 at 9:01am | IP Logged
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Then also stock Tractor Beams so when your opponent fires at your other ships you can force him to hit this one as well.
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ht80
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 4:50pm | IP Logged
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The appropriate rule is here:
http://galacticempires.no-ip.org/ge/GErulesv21.html
Note the section on Limit On Card Actions
You can only use "as a reaction" functions once each complete turn.
Edited by ht80 on 20 January 2010 at 4:57pm
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for taking the time to look that one up. I'm glad to know we've
been doing it right all along.
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ht80
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 5:28pm | IP Logged
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Reactionary phasers are over rated.
To be used "as a reaction" they can not have been fired during your last
turn. There usually aren't enough of them on the ship to kill a target in
reaction allowing them to save the ship. That limits there effectiveness in
saving your ship. That leaves trying to use them to soften at target prior
to your turn. That's limited too since you only have a choice of firing at
targets that are targeting your ship.
Of course you could get lucky and have an opponent that is using a ship
that's too small to attack your ship with reactionary phasers and they
don't have any more card plays so they can't react to your weapons fire.
But my luck never runs to playing against dumb players that don't take
that into account before they fire.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 6:40pm | IP Logged
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We've always played that ships with reaction phasers can fire both during
the owning players turn and once in retaliation when fired upon during
another player turn. Of course, we only allow it once per complete turn for
the ship, and only at units that are firing at the ship.
In our group, we're fond of doing things like putting a Weapons Officer or
a Future Ship on ships reactionary phasers, thus increasing their firepower
significantly. Each of us on one occasion or another has gotten a big ship,
like an 8, 9, or 10, out with that combo and have been able to vaporize
one of the firing ships, usually the smallest ship participating in the volley.
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ht80
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 7:28pm | IP Logged
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In firing on your own turn and another player's, You've fired twice on a
complete turn breaking the rule that states a cards action can only be used
once each turn. Playing by the rules, I'd much rather shoot during my own
weapon's phase unless I have a very good reason.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 20 January 2010 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
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But the card says "fire in reaction" which is different than firing offensively.
The card does not say "fire phasers in any way only once per turn" nor
does it even imply that.
Perhaps a better example is a C10 Time Knight. He can discard any one
card played, and he also has five points of time damage he can do. Is
using the time damage to attack a card action? Does doing so then mean
he can no longer use his discard ability?
While this admittedly a different kind of card, the principle is the same.
I don't think that firing offensively constitutes using a card action.
Edited by MogwaiSC on 21 January 2010 at 12:06am
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ht80
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| Posted: 21 January 2010 at 4:09am | IP Logged
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Each card action can be done ONCE per complete turn. The rule is very
specific. If a card action is used during your turn, it may not be used
during another player's turn. If a card has multiple actions, each of them
can be used once per complete turn.
BTW, searching for the word action in the rule book also lists the same
rule under crucial rules. Weapons fire must be an action or it could not
be used "as a reaction". The only other restriction on weapons fire
otherwise is it must occur during the weapons fire phase. (Yours or
another players.)
The only specific rules dealing with weapons firing in reaction are these.
Quote:
DETONIUM BOLTS: Detonium Bolts are used by the Zedan to
counter attack their enemies. Each Detonium Bolt requires 1 ammunition
point to cause 1 point of damage. Each armed Detonium Bolt (whether it
was fired or not) may be fired 1 time on 1 opponent turn, as a reaction to
weapons fired at the ship equipped with the Detonium Bolt. This fire must
be at one of the cards that fired at the ship equipped with the Detonium
Bolt. |
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I'd argue that phasers are not DETONIUM bolts designed to fire twice in a
single turn and trying to use this as an example of why reactionary
phasers can fire more than one in a complete turn would not apply.
Unless, of course, they were multi-purpose phasers which is not the case
above.
Edited by ht80 on 21 January 2010 at 4:19am
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 21 January 2010 at 3:35pm | IP Logged
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I see your point, the problem is that it doesn't say, there or anywhere
else in the rules I can find, that firing weapons is a "card action". I can't
find anything that says a weapons volley is a "card action" either. Now it
does say "function" but that is ambiguous because again, what
constitutes a "function" is not specifically defined.
A "function" of a base it to protect the terrain it's on, so according to
your interpretation, if someone fires at my planet and I have the base
protect it, then I can't do anything else with that base. Now the rules do
say that bases protect the planets they're on, but it doesn't say that it
doesn't take a card action for them to do that, so again, in strict
interpretation of the wording, if a base protects its planet, then it can't
do anything else because it has performed a "function" or taken an
"action".
I can see your point about card abilities, in other words text printed on
the card that says a card can do something, like a Marauder for
instance. But what about say, an S6 Vektrean Spy Cruiser which in its
card text that discarded spies can be sent to the spy cruiser? Under
your interpretation, if that ship fired its weapons, then it has taken an
action and can't redirect the discard spy to the ship. Same for my earlier
example of the C10 Time Knight; if you use his psy damage on your
turn, then you can't use his card stopping ability because the card has
already taken an action that turn.
So to play devil's advocate here, I still think the rules that are present
and their wording don't back up what you're saying. I also don't think
that this consequences was what was intended when cards were given
special abilities like the spy cruiser. It emasculates any special ability
given to any card.
Edited by MogwaiSC on 21 January 2010 at 3:38pm
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ht80
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| Posted: 21 January 2010 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
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No where did I say a card can only take one action. I said it can only use
each ability once per complete turn. Each phaser point can
cause one point of damage per complete turn, each resource can only
generate once each complete turn and each special ability can be used
once each complete turn. There is nothing in "as a reaction" that excepts
a card from that limitation. There is nothing in the statement that says if
I used another ability on a card, I can not use something else later in the
complete turn.
I might argue that the spy ship can only take one spy a turn but I'd have
to read the card. If the ability isn't really an action of the card it might be
argued that the limitation doesn't apply. To me, firing phasers is an action
of the card and can only be done once a complete turn. For ships with "as
a reaction", this can occur during your weapons phase or on another
person's weapons phase.
The real issue is that, for each player, a complete turn always starts again
with the engagement phase, not at the end of the player turn. If you used
an ability of a card during your player turn, it will not have that ability
available again until your next player turn. Had they made the rules to
start a complete turn at the end of your turn, then you could fire the
phasers "as a reaction" after you've fired them during your turn since they
"recycled" their ability at the end of your turn. Of course, if that was the
case, you would not be able to use them again on your next player turn
since they had already been used. That's all theory though since a
complete turn doesn't start at the end of the player turn, it starts at the
beginning of it.
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 21 January 2010 at 11:20pm | IP Logged
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ht80 wrote:
No where did I say a card can only take one action. I
said it can only use
each ability once per complete turn. ... There is nothing in
the statement that says if
I used another ability on a card, I can not use something else later in the
complete turn.
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Point taken. However, the language up to this point has been
ambiguous. I could have read your next to last post better, but earlier
on there was no clear definition between "action", "ability", "function",
etc.
Regardless, there is language here in the rules that needs to be cleaned
up. Things like "ability", "action", etc. need to be explicitly defined in
the rules but they are not. I think that is the main source of the
confusion here... and also a not close enough reading of the rules.
With respect to reactionary phasers, this is a game changer. It doesn't
really affect other things like the examples we've used, but with respect
to weapons fire, it significantly alters things. I'll have to bring this to
the attention of my group.
The question now is how do the cards that give you multipurpose
phasers, or reactionary phaser, work with respect to this? If your ship
has already fired, it seems that playing an R/E4 Multipurpose Phasers is
useless because even with the reaction card, you've already fired so the
card has no effect.
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ht80
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| Posted: 22 January 2010 at 4:22am | IP Logged
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I thought Multipurpose Phasers allowed the phasers to be fired multiple
times which is a mistake on my part. When you play it in reaction, it
should allow the ship to fire its phasers again at the units targeting
the ship though it doesn't really say that since it is a poorly worded early
card. It's also a discard after use card that is an equipment card so it is
limited useful. If you were to put it in your deck and try to use it, I would
allow the fire to occur even if you did fire your phasers previously since
the action taking effect is the throw away card's action, not the ships
action. To be non-ambiguous, it needed to state that it allows an
engaged ship to fire an additional time during the opponents turn. That's
assumed since reaction cards are assumed to be played only in reaction
and on the opponents turn.
The E8 card is worse though it is a newer card. The way it is written, the
ship could fire its phasers at a targeting unit after the volley has occurred.
I see nothing that states that the volley from the ship would occur before
the targeting unit's volley. I would force it to be resolved as a separate
volley from the one that targeted it. I might let you get by with claiming
that card action of the equipment card reactivated the phasers for the
turn if you actually tried to play that card against me. I also might not.
The card very poorly written. That card desperately needed "as a reaction"
on it.
The problem is the multi-purpose phaser card is a cheap attempt to have
the multi firing phasers the Federation had in Star Fleet Battles.
As for the rules and the cards being ambiguous, the early rules and cards
were written by an Ex New York State Cop that eventually ran his business
into bankruptcy and ended up on the run from creditors.
Edited by ht80 on 22 January 2010 at 4:43am
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Gekonauak
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| Posted: 22 January 2010 at 2:17pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Tony, I knew that didn't sound right when I said they could fire each player turn, but I couldn't find the rule about the "Limit on Card Actions"
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MogwaiSC
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| Posted: 26 January 2010 at 11:15pm | IP Logged
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Well, I guess the moral of the story is all's well that ends well, except for
former cops I suppose! :o
Regardless, this revelation does change some things, and also clarifies
others. I'll make a mention of it to my group and see what they have to
say. I play with Galactus and one other regular in our group, he's
registered here as "Deth Ray" but doesn't really post. We have a few other
occasionals, but mostly it's just us three. Actually, I can't really say I'm a
regular as I only have time to play once every couple of months at best...
oh well... "married with children" and all that... :P
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Galactic Empires : Rules Base
Topic: S10 Intrepid Wanderer
