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Marhault
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Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:53pm | IP Logged Quote Marhault

I have waited a week to respond to anything of my original post so I could have an array of responses to read. There are several things I would like to clarify and then some analysis I have concluded:

1. My whole idea of reviving the game was not to be a "one man venture". I do not know everything about the game, but I feel it has a concept that could carry it as far as magic as come. I enjoy playing it, and the only thing lacking is more players, and my hope is to fix that.

2. Rules changes would not mean entire game redesign. Even magic, in it's 12+ years of history has changed rules to either limit powerful cards, fix "broken combos or rules (trample)", and even implement new sets (legend rule / walls and defenders - kamigawa). People still play and there was adjustment. Did people quit, possibly, but there also came new kind of decks that could abuse the new rules and what not. There is no such thing as perfection.

3. Simplification was my key. I think about how I learned and then how I taught my brother the game. There were many points that either became muddled or became hard to explain (a good example is where someone mentioned "Discard after use" is used more than necessary). Making a game simpler to build a deck or play the turns does not mean ruining the game or making it different to play. Simplicity could entail anything from correcting text to make a rule clearer to changing the deck building rule from 8 types to 6.

The following is my analysis from the comments I saw to my last post:

1. Bringing back the game would definitely benefit people and their old cards/collections monetarily. It would create a market for those card the same way magic "original black border" cards generate the same interest. There seems to be no disagreement there.

2. There seems to be the feeling that not enough input from consistent die-hard players or supporters would not be gathered or it would be a fruitless task with no market support. I for one, being a business man, know one thing above all else: If you do not know how to do something right, get the experts. This would not even be truly possible without commentary and support from people who are active players and have been to the tournaments. As for being marketable, the fact that it existed before will stir up some memories and also, there is not really a solid sci-fi card game on shelves that has withstood the test of time. It is about time there was.

3. There is also the sentiment that developing a new game based on GE ideology would be more congruent or is only being done due to "lack of imagination".  First off, it has nothing to do with lack of imagination. It is all about reviving something that most likely met an untimely demise. The base is already there (people and rules), and could be able to reach shelves quicker. This would also help realize some of the ideas of the creators like "cyberspace" and the "ancients".

4. Finally, some of the die hards like things "as they are". Is there a risk of losing players, possibly, but is that a risk am I willing to take? This game is as it is because of the people who play. If the sentiment in changing rules to allow for easier/different playability would cause such a havoc as to make the people who have the current cards never go into the new game, then of course, might as well develop a new game. It is the same as saying I can build you a more updated mansion instead of your current shack, but if you still want to be in your shack, then what is the point. Essentially, I want to bring back the game in a way, both can be bridged. However, there is only one question left to ask:

     If the game came back with little to moderate game changes in both deck building and playing, how many would come on board and how many would stay with the way things are. Based on this, it will help me determine if you would rather see the game brought back or if it would be better to pursue a new game and leave GE as it lays.

"The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order."  -Alfred North Whitehead


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bignea
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Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:32pm | IP Logged Quote bignea

I have been playing since the early 90s and have invested alot of money in the game. I'm all for bringing back the game, with minor changes i think the game will be just fine.

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Biegel
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:43am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

 I agree with bignea. I agree with you. Any chance for this game to arise from the ashes is something that is a good thing. As Editor there will be some tough choices to make. That is part of life. I have seen people come and go from here but the site has continued. The game still draws new blood. I think all changes must finaly be one man's choice. I am sure that what you finaly decide  will be based on perserving the game verses financal responsibility. Have at it.
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Matchbox
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:20am | IP Logged Quote Matchbox

it would be great if this game came back.  there would be some changes that i suggested playing in bigneas group, and most are mentioned here on this board.  but i would really like to see it in the stores.
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Lobo
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 7:24am | IP Logged Quote Lobo

-Well, i can say that i won't be spending any more money on this game even if it is revived. I've ran out of room in my hobby closet for CCGs. However, you probably should hire a market analyst or a research firm to run some market research and acceptance numbers, consumer behavior and related data mining over seasons, competitive intelligence data, etc to really answer the question. That is if you want to do it right. If your business model does not include such things, that's fine, but to be profitable the few of us on these boards won't make that happen.

Good luck, have a good one.....Lobo



Edited by Lobo on 28 December 2007 at 7:25am
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Eaglepreacher
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 2:02pm | IP Logged Quote Eaglepreacher

I'm no help.  i for implementing small changes to the current game. I like the familiarity with sticking with something.  But on the other hand, with large changes the game can be simplified and made better but many of these changes would/could invalidate all the older cards.  Going either way offers much, but what will the public want?
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Biegel
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:57pm | IP Logged Quote Biegel

Just an idea. How about offering a trade in discount on certain cards? Another thing might be to offer a sticky paper with updated rules for certain problem cards. You know a peel off to up date card rules. Just stick them on the old rules location. You could make money on that alone. You won't have to own the game for that. Trademark it to your rules for GE . That would allow groups to adapt what they want . You could also develope the new series.Of course Still go for the Trademark if you can. I don't think createing an alternate set of game play even touche the copyright. Start small and if it works expand.
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:53am | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

1. Bringing back the game would definitely benefit people and their old cards/collections monetarily. It would create a market for those card the same way magic "original black border" cards generate the same interest. There seems to be no disagreement there.

*I* disagree. Not until the game becomes popular will there be value in the old cards, and then only in powerful cards (like the entity cards) that do not get reprinted.

As for being marketable, the fact that it existed before will stir up some memories

Yes, but frankly most of those memories will hurt rather than help. GE was introduced to a lot of people, and they rejected it. Mainly because the original artwork sucked, but some were due to it being overly complex.
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Biegel
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Posted: 02 January 2008 at 11:59am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

   I Think this is a thinking mans (womens)game. I don't think that if marketing were to be aimed at the masses persae you would get much interest. There are alot of young intelectuals out there that would come to the game if it was marketed correctly. I feel proper advertising and promotion are the key to any successful endevor. I lived 25 miles from the head office and never saw this game until its demise. A poster blitz in major schools and campus's in major metro areas telling of the comeback with good art on it would create interest. Card stores are good but not enough as the majority of young people do not frequent them.I think marketing is the key. If you don't have backing that can afford major investment it would be hard to make it pay. That was why I was trying to get Star Wars involvement. I see this as a possibility. I would release a game board and introductry set of cards that were thought out in advance to make it playable to start. I would keep it simple and artful in the starter decks. The Problem cards would be curtailed in a reprint of rules that came with the board. All of this would be time consuming but nessasary. A well thought out reintroduction is a part of this plan.  Input from all who come to this site would be very benifical and employment opertunities for all who showed true thought would be offered. There are many diverce personalities on this site and I am sure the company would need every thing from artists ,playestesters ,promoters, and Turney Refs not to forget simple Gofors.

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RobPro
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 2:29am | IP Logged Quote RobPro

I think a reboot of this game would need to make it possible for two twelve year-olds to pickup starter decks and be able to play a game with little problems. The who mechanics of it need to be streamlined, but they need to keep with the original theme of the game. I would say the deckstocking method, cardplays/draws, and ships being the main way to get damage on a sector HQ are the big things that need to stay the same. Reactionary cards cause most of the problems, so how they work could be retooled, but keeping to those three things would make the game still GE.

Magic, Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh all those games market to 12-20 year olds, and often have a hardcore fanbase in the 20+ age. This game would need to be able to compete at some level in that age category. Following around major sci-fi conventions would definitely be a good way to promote it.

I don't think current cards that aren't going to be reprinted should be legal in a revitalized version of GE. What's the point of starting again when people who played it a decade ago already have all the chase cards? You'd have new players start the game at a disadvantage, and they would need to catch up. Not many people want to pickup a brand spankin' new hobby where they can't even pull the cards they need from packs (it's a bad idea from a retail perspective too).

I don't think the game mechanics need to be drastically changed, or you may as well start another CCG. Nothing is wrong with doing that, GE by no means has a name thousands of consumers will flock to and begin purchasing. You'll be starting from scratch to get stores to stock the game, why have an old reputation looming overhead?

The game just needs to be simplified, made "less complex" while allowing everything that can happen now to still happen. There needs to be a much more detailed process for how cards are resolved, "last in, first out" doesn't work when you get into the various layers we've discussed on these boards time and time again.
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Biegel
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 5:58am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

RobPro, I agree with you about everything except its rep. No one cares about the past that matters. Your talking a new player base to make the game work. We have the internet which was in its infancy at the time of the game. Directions to play need to be large enough to read. The net makes that economical. Think of our struggles to follow those little booklets. Whoops my thumb slipped what page was that on. A group like this one A(Blog) would allow all new players to learn more Quickly. A Game Board that was Designed well  and Artful would stimulate the games desirability. The hard to get cards could and should be curtailed in the rules. A Game of Champions Resonable priced individual VR cards should be made advalible to those who want to persue that. Game mode, Type of play , Card limit, Indvidual cards used for each style of game played solves newbees problems with old hands just as it did in the past.

Edited by Biegel on 03 January 2008 at 9:50am
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RobPro
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:37am | IP Logged Quote RobPro

It is a bad idea to create a game where players are forced to purchase cards on a secondary market that they can't buy in packs. My suggestions are only if it comes back as a printed game, I have no interest in seeing GE as an online card game.
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werewolflht65
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 11:24am | IP Logged Quote werewolflht65

That was where Magic Online failed. By forcing people to spend full dollar for E-Cards, it just drove people away.

Although GE as a Shareware computer game would be a boon to all, I wouldn't pursue or force it to be pursued as a card game as well.

I would offer the base game as freeware, but then re-introduce the previous releases as a pay-to-play format. You get Universe for free, but if you want time gates or persona, you have to pay a fee.


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RobPro
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 11:30am | IP Logged Quote RobPro

I like the magic programs that just let people play the game with peers at no cost, but there's no money to be made from that so let third parties do it if the game becomes popular enough. The big thing with magic online is that if you get a full set of cards (i.e. one of each card in an expansion set) they'll let you trade it in for printed cards. No game can survive as online AND printed when it first comes out, I don't think getting it online should be a major concern of any revisit to the game.
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Biegel
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:30pm | IP Logged Quote Biegel

All of you make valid points. I didn't suggest an on line game,but a blog for comunication like this site. As for the hard to get cards that create a problem  package, them if you will. I was suggesting an easy to play game to start ( A Game Board and two starter decks. These would be fully playable and simple enough to teach beginners the fundimentals of the game. With 2500 plus cards in print no one could afford to buy the whole lot at once anyway.(Not Counting the Promos)  All cards could be produced eventualy(Still new Diction would override previous versions) The rules problems still need to be simplfied as to make the game playable right off. An on line site with a Blog for players to get thier questions answered and Touries Promoted, advertising, Game development and player involvement would build its body. I wonder how half of the current players would have lasted in the Tornies of its hayday. Sure some are here but this game needs to be learned it is not an instant understand for most.WHAT I AM SAYING IS DON'T REINVENT THE WHEEL USE IT IN A NEW WAY We have a tool that was not developed at the beginning of the game, The computer has made teaching possible from a distance. In Boston Collage of Art I had a Commercial Arts Pro. that said "To sell something you need to draw atention to it." A site creates a captive audience. It would allow the developement of read Commercials, Pop ups ,A whole market of potential Advertisers Income, Delic notes,Moola
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Biegel
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:35pm | IP Logged Quote Biegel

Now don't get me wrong I still want to see an online game. Let Advertisers pay for it.
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RobPro
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Posted: 03 January 2008 at 8:05pm | IP Logged Quote RobPro

But all of the cards currently printed would need to be redesigned and reformatted to work in a slightly changed rules environment. You won't be able to just start reprinting the old sheets, everything will have to be redone.
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Biegel
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Posted: 04 January 2008 at 5:45am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

RobPro that is a given. Work(Employment for many) The Employees did not cause the Demise. Circumstances and unnessasary complication did.We all can learn from the past. Remember there are alot of styles of play for this game, To reintroduce it you must make it playable for beginners. Those who enjoy will look deeper into it and learn the more complicated styles of play. A good educater guides the pupil they don't lead them. Start with Dick and Jane go to the moon. The growth will follow.

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Galaktische
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Posted: 04 January 2008 at 2:00pm | IP Logged Quote Galaktische

Marhault,

   If you're serious about bringing an SF CCG to market then I'm interested in seeing it and I'll judge it on its merit. If it is related to GE then I'll enjoy that but you shouldn't let the people on these boards influence your decision. You should use your business instincts and experience to craft the most successful game you can.

   If the game seems good then I'll try and grow a playing group in Oklahoma and do anything else an interested player can to help the game. I'm not married to the old rules nor to the old cards; I encourage you to do whatever it takes to make the game and your company successful.

   I will certainly buy at least one booster box of the first release and more if it is fun - just tell me where to send my money. If you should want my advice then just ask. I'm happy to help.

Good Luck

J--

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Biegel
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Posted: 05 January 2008 at 12:34am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

Hay Everyone, I am just furthering the discussion. I would not presume to have all the answers so don't take me the wrong way. I make observations based on input and my own personal contact with fellow enthusists of the game. As we all know disscussion is to further the thought processes not to make final decisions. The man (woman) with the rights and the Dough will have to that burden.  I worked for a type setting operation while in school in Boston and have contact with people in  printing operations and followed the developement of the industry which is cutting edge today. I had a friend who 12 years ago leased a $300,000 dollar copy machine for $1200 a month and you would not believe what that was capable of. They have chips so the feds can keep track of them. That good I tell you. He used it  to print  Brochures for his business. Both sides with perfect alignment, 1000 copies an hour, easy 24"/28" maybe more, sheets of heavy stock card grade paper if you want. At the rate Tecnoligy is moving what is advalible today?
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Guests
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Posted: 05 January 2008 at 1:14am | IP Logged Quote Guests

This might not be a really popular point of view but I am of the opinion that GE as we know it should not be "brought back" with new cards and new rules with a move forward attitude.

Every card game that has had longevity, as in new set release after new set release, has eventually sold out on its original supporters.  You get to a point where the overall card base is so large that you have to begin limiting or banning cards from game play.  I don't want to be told I can't play something just because the company doesn't want to print it anymore.  Sets continually introduce more and more powerful cards that unbalance the game. Eventually new card ideas always dry up, leading to production of often weaker, or less creative versions of older cards.  New rules or abilities are added to spice things up but usually lead to the loss of tactics and creativity in game play.

Even in GE we have seen the impact of the promo cards create division among players who either like them or don't.  Players who will use them or players who see them as an unbalancing element in the game.  GE's run ended before it could follow down this path.  Would I have liked to have seen it go on longer, sure but as its now been so many years since CG went down, trying to go back in time now just doesn't seem right.

Just so everyone knows, I'm a hugh GE fan and have been a player since Primary.  I have kept my collection intact through years of not being able to find even 1 other person to play with.  I have finally just put together a small group of 4 other people who are just now getting into the game for the first time.

I am all for the idea of a new game that has ties or roots in GE.  I would give that game an honest shot to impress me and earn me as a player like GE did.  But the idea of picking up where CG left off and taking GE into the 21st century does not interest me.  Valid points have been made in this thread about what would have to be done to make a new GE more successful.  Any new card games marketed today would have to be playable out of the box for an 8 year old.  Alas fellas, that's not GE.

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werewolflht65
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Posted: 05 January 2008 at 5:27am | IP Logged Quote werewolflht65

Yep, Ash is right. No one under the age of 14 could play GE out of the box as printed. Heck, the Universe 2.0 Starters still weren't legal by their own stocking rules.
Personally, I would keep all the good races, eliminate all the problematic or dysfunctional ones (Krebiz, Clydon, Psi) and build a new game off of them.


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Biegel
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Posted: 05 January 2008 at 6:26pm | IP Logged Quote Biegel

All I can say is I hope who ever has the rights has come to the same conclusion. The Capital that needs to be invested to make this game come back wil be hard to get up to start with. No need to lay out a ton of money for the rights too. The negativity that comes forth here has suprised me. I thought we had a bunch of diehards ready to push forward. All I get is negetivity. Its a good thing Shultz isn't around to wittness this. I know noootthing. I hope you all stick around to play in the future but alas it looks like doom. WOO IS US the end is near THE END IS NEAR Buck up cowboys there is a Duke out there high in his DRAGON SADDLE vaulting a space tyhoon to land in a little back water planet we call earth. EVERYONE knows if earth is destroyed the game is ..........
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Biegel
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Posted: 06 January 2008 at 6:27am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

......waiting for a come back( Bump)
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Marhault
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Posted: 08 January 2008 at 8:44pm | IP Logged Quote Marhault

After reading everything and watching the people around me who used to be big shots in the game fall out of reality and the desire to play, it would be easier just to create a new game from scratch than try to revive this game for a larger audience. Between die-hard reluctance, world of warcraft, and other interests that people could pursue even over card games in general, the competition and participation that would be received would be mediocre at best. I still think the game has possibilities, but perhaps, someone with more knowledge and more experience of the game should pursue it and make it work. Watching how the saturday games collapsed with the local people around me who got me into it for their infinite WoW excursions and all-night marathons, show just how this game could never compete against such allures. With whatever the future may hold I wish everyone all the best. I will turn my focus to other pursuits and endeavors as well.


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werewolflht65
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Posted: 09 January 2008 at 12:06am | IP Logged Quote werewolflht65

As a point of note: This past saturday I was told that you were organizing a get-together at Super Jew's house, but when I called him, he knew nothing about it, and when I called you I got no answer, and no return call.
So I called Harry, told him to go about his day, and then phoned Geo and told him to go back to bed.

Personally, if I had a car, I'd grab Harry and we'd be playing still. But as long as I have to rely on Geo for a pick up, I am at his WoW addicted Mercy.


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Biegel
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Posted: 09 January 2008 at 5:32am | IP Logged Quote Biegel

 Well folks as I said before I will continue to look into the rights and who has them. If they are within my means I will aquire them. As I said the game needs a revamp and a slow rebirth based on market studies and promotion. I am prepared to do this  I look forward to everyones participation should this be possible, and no I don't depict myself as a hero but as someone with a vested interest in seeing a comeback. I do not have the experiance in game play to feel qualified to develope the new rules on my own. To me it is a Hobby that might be a money maker or not. I  beleive that nothing is beyond redemption and this could rise from the ashes. I see a nonprofit  net version as one means to revive interest in it. The rules modifications should be done to change as little as possible and the cards including art I feel should remain as they are where possible.  I realize any reprints will have a tell tale look to them which is good to those who hold earlier versions. One of the hardest things in dealing with this game and starting to learn it was the rule book size and print in it. That must be remedied.  I would publish a Guide to GE in colorfull comic book form.We would need writers and artists with an understanding  of the game not to forget a worthy Art Director. Wonder if there are any around. I would want to help the player envision play in cartoon form. The book itself would help to captivate the player and incouage play. The shame is that the posters did not make the scene in time. I feel that promotion came to late when the game was already in trouble Well I yapped enough ,Hope you all stick around.
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super jew
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Posted: 09 January 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged Quote super jew

look im new to the game but i have come to the thought of 1 game of GE vs magic marvel etc by the time u play 1 full game of GE you could have played 8 or nine games of whatever. change is not a bad thing with minor changes think of how many rules questioned will not have to be asked and time and effort will take a big part so im not coveniced that change is bad but lets be real here 90% from what i have noticed has been just on rules questions alone and the person with the 10s out always wins. change would be great for the game.
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super jew
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Posted: 09 January 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged Quote super jew

what u are talking about makes no sense to me. first of all 565 cards perset is way to much. 2 it should be if the right person is running the show.3 why would you want to say u would not like more power to a deck.4 to me t seems like a waste of time even explaing it to u.
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Gekonauak
IRC
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1595
Posted: 09 January 2008 at 12:56pm | IP Logged Quote Gekonauak

Huh?!? 565 cards per set?

The core set might have been that much, but the expansions were a lot less cards.
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